Rule proposals affecting eventing

[msghook]

MsRidiculous, We wandering a bit off topic here but I don’t have an issue with the height of the fence. I am concerned about the width of the face. Using your 5’5" friend as a scale, it looks like the face width of the brush is 6’ or less. The CD Guidelines do not specify a minimum face width for brush fences, but for those fences for which they do, the minimum face width for Novice is 12’. This is my problem with “guidelines”. If a Novice vertical must be 12’ wide, then why is it alright to build a Novice brush or logpile that is 6’ wide? CDs and builders do this frequently and when I as TD question it, they shrug and say “Well its just a guideline.” I really think that riders are entitled to enough consistency that they can know what they should expect when they enter.

Malcolm

[goodmorning]

[QUOTE=msghook;8374930]
MsRidiculous, We wandering a bit off topic here but I don’t have an issue with the height of the fence. I am concerned about the width of the face. Using your 5’5" friend as a scale, it looks like the face width of the brush is 6’ or less. The CD Guidelines do not specify a minimum face width for brush fences, but for those fences for which they do, the minimum face width for Novice is 12’. This is my problem with “guidelines”. If a Novice vertical must be 12’ wide, then why is it alright to build a Novice brush or logpile that is 6’ wide? CDs and builders do this frequently and when I as TD question it, they shrug and say “Well its just a guideline.” I really think that riders are entitled to enough consistency that they can know what they should expect when they enter.

Malcolm[/QUOTE]

Ditto. There is a large knowledge & skill gap if you look at BN to N with that type of brush question at Novice.

[MsRidiculous]

I agree. While I personally didn’t have a problem with that fence (looking to move the horse up to T next year, so tougher questions are fine by me) it does seem like a good example of level creep and not really what you’d think of as a Novice type of fence. It was big, and skinny, and part of a combo.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=msghook;8374930]
MsRidiculous, We wandering a bit off topic here but I don’t have an issue with the height of the fence. I am concerned about the width of the face. Using your 5’5" friend as a scale, it looks like the face width of the brush is 6’ or less. The CD Guidelines do not specify a minimum face width for brush fences, but for those fences for which they do, the minimum face width for Novice is 12’. This is my problem with “guidelines”. If a Novice vertical must be 12’ wide, then why is it alright to build a Novice brush or logpile that is 6’ wide? CDs and builders do this frequently and when I as TD question it, they shrug and say “Well its just a guideline.” I really think that riders are entitled to enough consistency that they can know what they should expect when they enter.

Malcolm[/QUOTE]

Agreed…the width of that fence seems more of an issue to me than the brush. Glad the rules are being tightened up…why not just make the guidelines the rule? Perhaps what you need to do is not call them “guidelines” but instead “Policy” or something stronger.

But on topic…yeah, the brush height has freaked me out at all levels as I always seem to own horses who jump the whole damn thing. Current boy is no exception…and at Prelim, he is jumping a damn big fence…happily…his rider…not so happily More like nightmares about the fence from the start of the first course walk, grabing mane/neck strap, praying…and shoving my foot forward for landing…followed by lots of good boys for taking care of us

Hate those damn fences and wish the brush heights were lower…for all levels. Especially now without steeple chase, I seem to see course designers use the ability to have big brush fences to ask bigger scope questions with tight brush…rather than brush for galloping type fences (where it originally made sense–aka steeple chase fences).

[enjoytheride]

Well, I didn’t think people wouldn’t be aware of the old rules!

However, in an effort to rebunch some knickers, here are the general rules. Including a rule stirring up lots of discipline about requiring proof of vaccinations.

https://www.usef.org/_iframes/rulebook/ruleproposals/prcindex.aspx

[Auburn]

When I was in a “B” pony club rally, back in the early 70’s, we had a "Bullfinch’’ that was close to 6’ tall. The fronds were wispy, so as to invite the horse to jump through, instead of over the whole thing.

Most of the brush jumps today are the required height, but the wispy tops have been chain sawed off and the brush box is left with thick, stubby brush. There is no way that the horse could jump through the brush without scratching himself. I believe that it defeats the purpose of that type of jump.

Does anyone know why CD’s have begun to do them that way? If they shorten from the bottom, instead of the top, then the fronds will remain wispy.

[JP60]

It would seem the Fall HT at Windridge took advantage of most of those “proposed” changes at Novice. :eek: Including a big honking brush at the end. Sterling also is one who does not know what a brush is so jumped all 3’5 or 6" of it.

I feel the battle was lost a while ago and things like this will happen more and more. Folks who make the decisions like this fit in the difference between Professionals and Instructors teaching amateurs.

Professionals, Ammies with long histories and skills are want to say “yeah, it can get a little sticky, but it can ride forward, I really don’t see a problem with it”. But of course you don’t. It also may be your 10 or 20th horse, some green, over a lifetime and your ability to make it happen is instinctual more than conscious.

Instructors teaching Ammies, those with green horses and green seats, those who see the variety of rider horse combinations day in and day out may say “Are you kidding? Are you really trying to push people out of this sport?” Then they work twice as hard to make sure their student doesn’t have too many bad days.

In a way I do applaud that they are trying to put more standards into the course design, but it won’t work. After reading an article that about a CD, he was of the opinion that low level courses were pretty much boring to make. With that attitude, they cannot help but do something to make it interesting without considering the 55 yo woman or man starting out in the sport, wanting to have fun running cross country and jumping all the things. The green horse still spooky on water now having to deal with a jump and water question 4 strides away.

I was hoping to move up to training. Sterling clearly can jump it, but reading the changes/confirmations of Training I am rethinking it. A bounce two step up? Water to Water…I dunno.

We didn’t want to finish on Dressage, TPTB are now delivering on that wish.

[leighbo009]

[QUOTE=JP60;8376598]
…
I was hoping to move up to training. Sterling clearly can jump it, but reading the changes/confirmations of Training I am rethinking it. A bounce two step up? Water to Water…I dunno.

…[/QUOTE]

I have seen a bank up, 2 strides to a bank down, 4 to a maxed roll top on novice (my first novice at that)(up bank and down where numbered separately, but not enough room to circle on the top of the banks, and the down was A to roll top as B). I have also seen a water to water on a training course. Those are not new changes, you just don’t see them often.

[BBowen]

I try to follow the rule changes each year and make sure I have a written copy of the rules to take with me when jump judging (I no longer compete). For those of you who are new to the sport and mentioned fences that you see at an unrecognized event, please know that those obstacles may or may not be a good comparison to a recognized event. Believe me, I had a rude awakening even at a recognized BN/N vs. an unrecognized BN/N. I do recommend that anyone new to the sport, go back and read the rules that concern you for the past several years, so you have a complete understanding of the “history” of a particular rule. Also, when it comes to courses, be sure that you are looking at comparable courses. Regardless, have fun and be safe.

[KayBee]

I think the USEA is trying to acknowledge that BN is a mishmash of both experience and the opportunity to GET experience, which is nice (e.g., they’re specifying options to some problem jumps (water/ditch). Some recognized shows already do this by either not offering those jumps, or providing a more direct route to a fence through (unflagged) water, for example.

Really, though, the big change for BN XC is the specified distances between fences before and after water. Based on my reading of both the 2013 CD guidelines and rule book, this adds something new. And, IIRC, it was introducing a jump BEFORE water that (at least in part) got members up in arms last year.

For me, though, the rule gives a too broad range of options that, IMO, would be better broken across BN and N.

Water crossings, if included, should be simple and inviting in nature with consideration for an alternate jump next to it (a simple log) which could provide an option to those not ready to cross water. There must be no jumps before or after a water crossing within six strides before and four strides after.

So we have:

1. No water, or water that is not flagged
2. Water, with alternate log type fence nearby (and make the option a longer route?)
3. Water with jump 6 strides before… which, if you have an alternate fence to the water, how to set it up so that there’s a route from fence before water to alternate fence
4. Water with jump 4 strides after (same issue as 3)

I think 3, at least, should be a Novice question. I don’t have issues with a jump coming out of water, particularly if it’s specified that it’s not max height to make it easier for folks to trot it. But for horses inexperienced with water, a jump BEFORE water could be… tricky. And I am entirely spoiled with my horse, so my nonchalance is probably atypical

That being said, a jump near the water instead of a water could be equally problematic for water-leery horses, depending on the jump’s proximity. Saw someone try to get their horse to go between a flag and the water (there was about 2, 2.5 feet of dry land between flag and water) and… fail utterly. I watched… oh, so many refusals before the jump judge finally eliminated the pair.

[redalter]

I wondered that, too

[QUOTE=KayBee;8378199]
I think the USEA is trying to acknowledge that BN is a mishmash of both experience and the opportunity to GET experience, which is nice (e.g., they’re specifying options to some problem jumps (water/ditch). Some recognized shows already do this by either not offering those jumps, or providing a more direct route to a fence through (unflagged) water, for example.

Really, though, the big change for BN XC is the specified distances between fences before and after water. Based on my reading of both the 2013 CD guidelines and rule book, this adds something new. And, IIRC, it was introducing a jump BEFORE water that (at least in part) got members up in arms last year.

For me, though, the rule gives a too broad range of options that, IMO, would be better broken across BN and N.

So we have:

1. No water, or water that is not flagged
2. Water, with alternate log type fence nearby (and make the option a longer route?)
3. Water with jump 6 strides before… which, if you have an alternate fence to the water, how to set it up so that there’s a route from fence before water to alternate fence
4. Water with jump 4 strides after (same issue as 3)

I think 3, at least, should be a Novice question. I don’t have issues with a jump coming out of water, particularly if it’s specified that it’s not max height to make it easier for folks to trot it. But for horses inexperienced with water, a jump BEFORE water could be… tricky. And I am entirely spoiled with my horse, so my nonchalance is probably atypical

That being said, a jump near the water instead of a water could be equally problematic for water-leery horses, depending on the jump’s proximity. Saw someone try to get their horse to go between a flag and the water (there was about 2, 2.5 feet of dry land between flag and water) and… fail utterly. I watched… oh, so many refusals before the jump judge finally eliminated the pair.

In terms of brush jumps/“width of jumpable face” the course designer guidelines oddly do not specify a width for a single brush jump at any level (but they do for brush combinations). One would think that since the “skinniest” face allowable at BN (12’) would also be the minimum width of a (single) brush obstacle. Not sure if this is an oversight or…? From what I’m told, though, horses typically find brush fences inviting? Could that be (part of) the logic? At any rate, seems like it should be spelled out, nonetheless…

Right now, the 2013 CD guidelines do not specify minimum width of face for the following obstacles legal at:

BN and above
Banks (simple jump up)
Brush box
Drop fence
Log pile
Open ditch (natural)
Steps

N and above
Banks (simple jump down)
Open ditch (revetted)

T and above
Roofs (vertical/picture frame)
Weldon’s Wall

P and above
Normandy/Cornish/Irish banks
Bullfinch

Intermediate and above
Bounces into water

Note: I also have a horse that jumps brush as if it were a solid obstacle. Makes the brush to… coop (?) combination at Town Hill an adventure. (Honestly, it’s ridden fine, but the first year I did it I was all… “Ulp.”)

Also, note that a half coffin (ditch to jump or jump to ditch) is currently legal at N and has been since… I dunno. For a while, I’m guessing. Janet? (The term “coffin” has apparently been retired from usage (too scary), which is why the guidelines are talking about ditch/jump combinations.)

What do people think, though – aside from “ditchy” horses, are coffins really something that intimidates the horse? Or is it more “preying on rider psychology”? I’ve had the opportunity to school a full coffin twice, and the one ditchy horse (not mine) actually seemed to find the ditch to be LESS of an issue with something else to focus on, particularly if it was set up ditch to jump. Same goes for a fence after water. Gives both the horse and rider something to ride towards, dammit!

Query re: vests… The vest rules change means that the lace-up Tips will not be acceptable, yes? And the rules go into effect in 2017?[/QUOTE]

Re: the vests- the TIPs will no longer be acceptable?

[HiJumpGrrl]

^not as of Dec 1 2017

[redalter]

[QUOTE=HiJumpGrrl;8378386]
^not as of Dec 1 2017[/QUOTE]

Thanks. Sigh. Just got a new one a couple of years ago…

[enjoytheride]

[QUOTE=HiJumpGrrl;8378386]
^not as of Dec 1 2017[/QUOTE]

These are proposals on the books. They have not passed and are not official.

[redalter]

[QUOTE=enjoytheride;8378499]
These are proposals on the books. They have not passed and are not official.

Further, there is no rule change PROPOSAL that bans certain vests. It just changes the language a bit, they still SUGGEST a certain level of vest but it is just a suggestion, not a requirement.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the clarification! I also admit to being lazy and not reading through the entire thing.

[enjoytheride]

[QUOTE=redalter;8378510]
Thank you for the clarification! I also admit to being lazy and not reading through the entire thing. :)[/QUOTE]

I did edit my post as I found the language a bit confusing about what is required or not, but it is still just a proposal.

[KayBee]

Split my post in half…

In terms of brush jumps/“width of jumpable face” the course designer guidelines oddly do not specify a width for a single brush jump at any level (but they do for brush combinations). One would think that since the “skinniest” face allowable at BN (12’) would also be the minimum width of a (single) brush obstacle. Not sure if this is an oversight or…? From what I’m told, though, horses typically find brush fences inviting? Could that be (part of) the logic? At any rate, seems like it should be spelled out, nonetheless…

Right now, the 2013 CD guidelines do not specify minimum width of face for the following obstacles legal at:

BN and above
Banks (simple jump up)
Brush box
Drop fence
Log pile
Open ditch (natural)
Steps

N and above
Banks (simple jump down)
Open ditch (revetted)

T and above
Roofs (vertical/picture frame)
Weldon’s Wall

P and above
Normandy/Cornish/Irish banks
Bullfinch

Intermediate and above
Bounces into water

Note: I also have a horse that jumps brush as if it were a solid obstacle. Makes the brush to… coop (?) combination at Town Hill an adventure. (Honestly, it’s ridden fine, but the first year I did it I was all… “Ulp.”)

Also, note that a half coffin (ditch to jump or jump to ditch) is currently legal at N and has been since… I dunno. For a while, I’m guessing. Janet? (The term “coffin” has apparently been retired from usage (too scary), which is why the guidelines are talking about ditch/jump combinations.)

What do people think, though – aside from “ditchy” horses, are coffins really something that intimidates the horse? Or is it more “preying on rider psychology”? I’ve had the opportunity to school a full coffin twice, and the one ditchy horse (not mine) actually seemed to find the ditch to be LESS of an issue with something else to focus on, particularly if it was set up ditch to jump. Same goes for a fence after water. Gives both the horse and rider something to ride towards, dammit!

[Hunterkid]

Coffins usually help a ditchy horse or mask their “ditchy-ness” the jump helps them focus ahead and keep moving through it.

[asterix]

I have a ditchy horse. I would so much rather ride him through a combo with a jump before or a jump after than just a ditch. I do not feel that, at a low height, this adds any significant level of difficulty.

[LJ55]

In New Zealand our BN equivalent is Pre Training and I recently went to an event (beginning of the season at a club I had never been to before) which had an arrowhead with brush on top, a coffin (rails, two strides, ditch, one stride, rails) 2 corners one with a terrible line onto it, and the usual step into the water and then canter out the beach 2 strides to a box plus lots of jumps with bad lines and curving combinations on of which the second element was was a skinny.

Another event I did recently at the same level had 2 combinations in the sj, one was a one stride and another a two stride both with oxers.

It was a pretty mean course but it is standard to jump a bank into and out of the water (often only 3 strides in the water) and have ditches sometimes trakehners, etc.

I find it interesting people complaining about having some of these elements at Novice level when over here they are pretty standard for the lower levels. I haven’t heard many people complain at all about our courses, I think it makes moving up easier by having these combinations when the jumps are lower and less likely to cause harm and it prevents people moving up before they are ready.