Runaway with a pony/mini..kindof long

[appybeads]

I have a mini horse who I purchased a year ago to show CDE. He has lots of driving/show experience. Last October (out of the blue) after long-lining like we do before we hitch up, went to hitch him up and he flipped over in the cart, just laying there sideways. Got him unhitched and tried again, took our time 4x he did the same thing, finally he didn’t flip so we walked for about 15 minutes w/me walking while he was hitched. Took him to the vet, couldn’t find anything physically wrong. So for months I have been taking my time, making it the most pleasant experience for him. He had “partial meltdowns” but nothing like in October. We worked through them (tail swishing, backing, hallowback I am a brat behavior).

So today after working him for the past few weeks without incident, he acted fine, long-lined go to hitch (nothing changed, same harness, same cart etc) he wouldn’t go forward to I clucked, little tap with whip, he just backed and backed. I am on the side of the cart out of the way. Got my hubby to hold his head while we try to encourage forward. He walks a few steps and I proceed to long-line drive behind the cart. Hubby lets go and goes back to his stuff.

The horse kicks and backs I am trying to push him forward and then he rears up, spins around and the reins are wrapped around his neck as I was trying to reach his head to grab the bit. Mind you this horse is only 34 inches high (have no idea in hands :winkgrin:) he hits me in the arm with his hoof, ouch! so I just let go I lost control and he went running off. Past the house through yard towards the neighbors horses, hits a tree with the wheel the tugs torn, the cart is smashed sideways on the tree. Takes off through a hay field about a half-mile away. Neighbors who were out working their horses, hopped in their truck, hubby gets the four wheeler and off we go, we can’t see him as we live on a fairly busy road and cars are whipping by, OH SH(#* he is going to get his by a car. We followed the ruckus of the other horses in the neighborhood and found him whipping around a pasture with 5 other big horses. They are in a wire fence. He managed to go through 3 sets of wire fence. We did catch him and he just has a little scrape on his front leg.

Walked him back, cleaned the wound, banamine and electrolyes (felt like 90 w/humidity today in NC) he is fine physically. Running around the pasture like nothing happened. I really don’t know why this horse did this he has definately something going on between the ears. Going to take to the vet on Monday to check him out - teeth, back etc.

So have a brand new harness that I have used 4 times, that I have to send back to get the tugs fixed and everything else checked out. BTW love leather did it’s job (Driving Essentials highly recommend). The cart has a bent axle, wheel and it is twisted. Hubby built the cart and builds race cars so he can fix that too.

So now I have a horse with issues and I don’t trust him to drive anymore.

[MySparrow]

Gosh, what a terrifying experience! Thank goodness you and he and everyone else came out of it relatively unscathed. You are far braver than I – after the first meltdown I would never have worked him outside the arena until I was sure all issues had been resolved.

You are thinking, what the heck is wrong with this horse? If you are certain that he drove well and successfully before he came to you, then something has changed. Horses don’t just alter their personality and behavior out of the blue. Even a good equine vet can’t always pick up a problem – an equine chiropractor would be a good second opinion. In my experience, inexplicable behavior change like this usually – like 95 percent of the time – indicates pain.

It also could be that something has changed in the way he is being driven. It could be that some part of the harness is not fitting correctly, that he does not like the bit, that your hands are different from those he was trained by, that the cart is not balanced for him (I have seen a lot of carts, especially for minis, that are not well balanced. It takes long years of experience or a good set of plans to make a cart that will really work, especially for a mini). Have you an instructor to work with who can help you assess the problem?

And of course, he may never drive safely again after an experience like today’s. That would be a shame, but if he’s an amenable little fellow he’ll make a good pasture ornament or companion.

The main thing would be for you to take away a pretty good understanding of what went wrong here, so that you can keep it from going wrong again.

Good luck! I hope you will let us know what the vet says.

Dale

[Thomas_1]

I’ve a mass of questions before I can offer any help…

Am I understanding correctly that you have the horse put to the vehicle but you are still on the ground?? Yet trying to get the horse to walk forward from the side with no driver in the vehicle??? If this is the case then I’ve been helping a lady this week whose had a wreck in exactly the same circumstances. You should NEVER do that. REALLY high risk and a HUGE NO NO NO.

You said he spun round and ended up with the reins around his neck??? Precisely what do you mean? I was thinking the carriage was on him at this stage? But I’m also at a loss to understand… Where were you??? How comes you’re the driver but ended up heading the pony??? I was thinking the carriage was still connected when he bolted off? If so you should have had the reins NOT been at his head. I’m thinking you’re making some fundamental errors putting him to and which whilst you might “get away with” on a well schooled placid horse, its just not really on.

Have you actually seen this pony driven before?

Have you actually driven him before?

If so, have you changed anything?

What is your driving experience?

Have you got a photo of the pony harnessed up?

Particularly the collar?

How heavy is your carriage? Is it a 2 or 4 wheeler?

How do you actually ask a horse to walk forward from stand?

Do you have a short video clip of you long reining him?

[goeslikestink]

um-- i dont think the horse has actually any expreince-- at all,
sounds like this guy doesnt know hwats required of him and sounds lot of circumstances of errors
1-- yourself as not enough expreince i dont think,
2- you hubby made the trap dont know if the weight is correct for the pony
3- your hubby held his head then went and did his own stuff if this horse is new and 1st time in the trap as judging by what you saying as you have hitch but not quite made it to a drive
then hubby should have stayed with you

4- at the hitch the horse flips not once but a few times- this is lack of expreince on horses
part some horse will advade when restricted as ther 1st thought is one of flee but when they cant then they advade and if that advasion means flipping over then they will horse
5-horse wasnt ready to be hitched hence the flip
6- as quote by yourself-- long line like unqoute whats long like? eith you know how to long line or you dont – agian educational error
7-you are long line -ing behind the cart? and hubby lets go of his head and does his stuff and leaves you to it–

you are pushing him forwards from behind the cart and he rears up and spins round

really sad , did you buy this horse from an competition becuase you thought he was expreince and you are expreince and knowledgable enough to trian him

matey i am a rusty driver havent dont it for yonks but 1
your not expreinced in the art of training a horse or pony to drive

and the poor pony is the one that gets the balme and suffers the consequences of events
by the handler-- its nto him that needs looking at as to why he does tthis or that

but your own teaching methods –

[appybeads]

Mysparrow thanks for the nice comment. I appreciate the caring word.

I wasn’t coming here for advice on what I did wrong just to vent what happened. People are so quick to judge, I know if I can’t take it I shouldn’t post but some people can be so mean.

The horse has many years of experience in driving. He is 9 and came from a single pleasure driving backround where they want a very up horse (think hackney) and a person who is a highly trusted and excellent trainer who excels in all discplines. Who knows me and the horse.

The horse who I purchased last June had no problems until a day in October when he freaked out. Nothing had changed in the horses tack, routine etc. He is a 34 inch miniature horse. When he had flipped over the first time, the horse would rear-up and lay down as if it were a learned behavior. He would lay there laying sideways eating grass while we got him unhitched. We work with another trainer who is very highly rated and I have been taking lessons with them with the horse.

I was not in the cart because I know how the horse is and what he was capable of while hitched. Hence while I have been taking my time to try to get him back to where he was. I usually walk behind the two wheeled easy entry cart for a warm-up of 20 minutes as my instructor and person I bought him from advised on. The horse still hadn’t settled down so my husband was holding his head (as a header does) to avoid and runway while I was getting in. I didn’t get in the cart because he was hallowbacked, swishing his tail and ears pinned to his head.

The horse to my knowledge as I have been told had never had this type of episode. He has been “cold-backed” a few times as I was told by the person I bought him from. So following their instructions and as I have always done with him, the same routine.

goeslinstink - I did not purchase the horse just to kick the competition. I purchased him on his beautiful movement and for his potential to compete in ADT.

I take driving lessons on a regular basis and I have over 10 years of driving experience and been riding for over 30 years.

The mini will NOT be driven again for he had the crap scared out him and he would probably have a heart attack.

Thanks

[cinder88]

That sounds extremely frightening and I for one am glad you weren’t IN the cart when he took off…

NOT from a driving background, but just a horse one…A friend had a horse at our place that went through a really huge personailty change from what it was like before. Got to the point where he would rear, back, everything when she tried to ride him.

He was vetted from stem to stern and they came up with nothing. As a last ditch effort before she gave up and put him down as unmanageable, they had allergy testing done on him and discovered that he had an allergy to a certain weed…After checking many bales, they identified that this was an uncommon weed but WAS present in the hay sometimes…When it was, the horse would get a terrible reaction where he couldn’t bear anything on his skin…hence the reaction. She now buys all her own hay from a dealer who doesn’t have that weed, and the horse is fine.

Again, nothing to do with actually driving, but just a general thought…

Cinder

[Jetiki]

You might want to have him checked by a chiropractor, he could be out of whack with all this flipping and such.

Has he had his wolf teeth removed? What kind of shows was this horse trained for before you bought him, Breed shows or Pleasure Driving shows?

I thought my mare was perfectly fine in her harness as well but putting a different harness on her with a different cart made such a difference in her stride and attitude I don’t want to go back to mine, fortunately I don’t really have to.

As we all know horses change with fitness level etc so what might have fit 6 months ago, may not fit the same way now. Never hurts to recheck everything, there has to be a reason, horses just don’t flip for nothing. I hope you can get it figured out.

Karen

[kearleydk]

Where is Hobby horse?

Hobby Horse you there? Is this a mini thing? Just by chance I met a mini that did pretty much the same thing. Flipping over when put to the cart. Apparently they are capable of the impossible.

My mini experience is limited to that one horse. He managed to flip the cart on flat ground at a walk. If I had not been there I would not have believed it.

Dick

[appybeads]

HI Jetki (Karen) he was at the fun show last year in October (ECMHC) we have the pinto gelding we didn’t drive at this show.

Have alot of people stumped and I guess since the horses can’t tell you what is wrong that is really the frustrating part. This horse is VERY complicated.

[HackneyHorseDriver]

Have him looked at by a good horse chiro.
We got in a 3 year old Modern Shetland in November. Went through all the ground work and long lining beatifully. Being a Modern he is small so we were very careful with the weight. He would swish his tail, not bridle nicely, and streatch when putting to. Suggested our beloved Chiro and she found a block from hip to hip that was locked. Upon further converstaion it finally came out the owner had found him in October laying quietly under the bottom board of pasture fence. The pony is a very good soul and the owner thought he fell and just waiting to be helped. She had no idea that he may have thrashed previous trying to get himself out. He is now a very happy, much more fluid moving pony then when he arrived, that bridles nicely, stands, and enjoys his work.

I wish you luck and hope your mini gets a new lease on life.

[olehossgal]

Well, I’m not ‘hobbyhorse’, but I’ve owned, bred, trained, driven, and shown (my own, by choice I seldom train for other people) miniatures for 24 years(and ridden and trained, though not driven, ‘fullsized’ horses for MANY years before that, and since, so I think I am qualified to speak to this subject…)
I don’t believe this is necessarily a ‘mini’ thing, per se. I would be the FIRST to suggest that, especially IF YOU WANT TO TRY TO DRIVE this horse again, you explore EVERY POSSIBLE cause of this problem, including having a chiropractor examine the horse, as well as a very complete vet workup, because I have come to believe that there is ALWAYS the possibility of a ‘causal’ agent that NO ONE has thought of, or which is extremely RARE (as with the allergy mentioned by another poster…). I must add, though, that virtually EVERY occasion when I’ve seen, or heard of, a miniature that behaved in this manner, it was ‘somehow’ related to ‘breed show ring’ type of ‘training’(in quotes because I believe what’s done often doesn’t qualify as what I’d consider training…)-or(nothing personal meant, just the facts of my observation), an owner who wasn’t genuinely experienced in that specific area–i.e., driving.)

“Training” a mini to drive for the breed show ring, IMO, VERY often leaves BIG ‘holes’ in a horse’s proper education. In addition, the horses are often ‘rushed’ into the show ring, overused, and ‘soured’ in one or more ways(not unlike other breeds I can think of, but that’s for a completely different post…). I KNOW horses that have won, BIG and often, at least for awhile, in the mini breed ring, that I would not climb in a cart behind…because they are as likely as not to ‘blow up’, usually without warning.

One factor that might be ‘related’ to the horse being a mini is that those who really AREN’T horsemen often believe, and behave, as if they can physically ‘overpower’ a miniature to ‘make’ it perform, or behave, as they wish it to. Now, sometimes this may be more or less ‘possible’, but it is NOT the proper or wise approach, and invariably, I believe, will lead to problems, for SOMEONE–the horse, the original handler(s), or a later owner or handler–someone who has no idea what mishandling the horse may have been subjected to! A horse is a horse, and should be approached and treated as a good horseman KNOWS how to treat a horse. A horse may not exhibit ‘regressive’ behavior until something ‘triggers’ it–something the person handling them at the time has no idea about…
Most of this is simply my opinions, based on long years’ of experience with horses in general and miniatures in particular. It could even just be that this horse really doesn’t ‘wish to be’ a driving horse, and just chose the critical moment to demonstrate it. It could be a malingerer, too–figured out how to ‘avoid’ the work and is an ‘expert’ at it?!!— I do know that with as many prospects as there are out in the world, if it were me, I would probably not ‘push the envelope’, as I value my safety!
FWIW; I wish you the best, appybeads, whatever course you choose!

Margo in New Mexico (aka olehossgal)

[Thomas_1]

^ Good posting but the OP has said he/she doesn’t want advice and that the pony won’t be driven again!

[appybeads]

I have to agree that though advice is good to be given it is just the tone that some people write, maybe I am being over sensitive :yes:

[UnderTheSonWelshCobs]

Well it’s NOT a “mini thing”. I have lots of em and never had one rear and flip.

I’m betting on a back pain issue. Not sure if this little guy will ever drive again, that was a pretty bad experience following what sounds like an ongoing issue.

Sorry it happened… sorry I can’t offer much advice. Glad no one was badly hurt.

Excellent post Margo, I couldn’t have said it any better myself. I agree with EVERYTHING you said there.

[movo]

Minis don’t wear breeching in the driving classes at breed shows and they MUST have wear an over check or a side check and most have the shafts tied down and not floating. Have you thought about the breeching perhaps causing a problem, or some other feature not experienced in the breed show driving ring. As another poster mentioned, training for miniature horse breed show driving classes is a long way from CDE training.

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=appybeads;3257914]
I have to agree that though advice is good to be given it is just the tone that some people write, maybe I am being over sensitive :yes:[/QUOTE] Perhaps you’d prefer it if you had bad advice delivered with sweetness and light.

Seems to me though that good advice delivered frankly and plainly is what your pony needs. IMO you’d do yourself and your pony a great service if you get over your sensitivities and dislikes.

[hobbyhorse23]

I’m here, I’m here

[QUOTE=appybeads;3255871]
The horse has many years of experience in driving. He is 9 and came from a single pleasure driving backround where they want a very up horse (think hackney) and a person who is a highly trusted and excellent trainer who excels in all discplines. Who knows me and the horse.

The horse who I purchased last June had no problems until a day in October when he freaked out. Nothing had changed in the horses tack, routine etc. He is a 34 inch miniature horse. When he had flipped over the first time, the horse would rear-up and lay down as if it were a learned behavior. He would lay there laying sideways eating grass while we got him unhitched. We work with another trainer who is very highly rated and I have been taking lessons with them with the horse.

I was not in the cart because I know how the horse is and what he was capable of while hitched. Hence while I have been taking my time to try to get him back to where he was. I usually walk behind the two wheeled easy entry cart for a warm-up of 20 minutes as my instructor and person I bought him from advised on. The horse still hadn’t settled down so my husband was holding his head (as a header does) to avoid and runway while I was getting in. I didn’t get in the cart because he was hallowbacked, swishing his tail and ears pinned to his head.

The horse to my knowledge as I have been told had never had this type of episode. He has been “cold-backed” a few times as I was told by the person I bought him from. So following their instructions and as I have always done with him, the same routine. [/QUOTE]

Well, there’s some definite warning signs there alright. For one thing a horse who isn’t ridden has no reason at all to be “cold-backed” unless they are in some kind of pain. Most miniature horse saddles are not built with the comfort of the horse in mind and are narrow, unpadded, untreed, and often don’t even have a gullet for the spine. Even a decent saddle, if put too far forward, can pinch the skin at the girth or push uncomfortably into the spine. He could have a sore under his tail from the crupper being tight. His cart could be too heavy and unbalanced. His wrap straps (if he has them, I assume he does) could be too tight or pinching skin between them and the girth. Combine that with no breeching and a very tight check if he’s a single pleasure horse and it’s no wonder he’s become ouchy! If he’s a complicated, sensitive fellow as you’ve indicated he is he could very well object to discomfort that a more easy-going fellow would accept without complaint. Trust me, I’ve got one just like him.

If he was still hollow-backed, swishing his tail and his ears were pinned to his head after 20 minutes I think my first reaction would have been to take him OUT of the cart and start removing equipment one piece at a time until he’d ground-drive comfortably. You did the right thing in not getting in and having a header but as Thomas and others pointed out it can be quite a safety risk. I have minis and drive with a very experienced trainer of full-sized combined driving horses and I know I am simply not allowed to ground-drive so much as a step forward with that cart attached on her property. I also know that when I’m home I do so for short periods and certain purposes but only in very particular circumstances and only with certain carts. The ones where I’m at the end of my reins standing behind them, the seat is high enough to be in my way, or on days when the horse is being insane…no way! I either get a header to hold him until I can get safely in the cart or he gets run into a fence, pinned there and unhitched to work some of the crazies out on the long-lines.

I have seen many minis flip over at the local AMHR breed shows and the animal is always in the show-string of a certain well-respected mini trainer. It’s a different one each time but they were all rushed through their training and each and every one was taught to TROT ON and hold a high checked headset long before they were taught to pull the cart. The “driving” aspect of a driving class is literally an afterthought and I’ve heard her say so in as many words. :no: There’s a real difference between training the horse to drive so you can show the horse and training the horse to drive so you can show off their driving training. Because I’m a driver first, not a showman, I have a real distrust of horses trained with the other method. That’s just me!

I’m sorry that you had such an awful experience and agree that the horse should probably not be driven again without a complete change in equipment, style of driving, and the help of an experienced DRIVING trainer and a good chiropractor. There are some good mini trainers out there but I judge them by their horses and if this fellow is a product of that particular trainer’s methods I would be inclined to look elsewhere. Especially given the advice they gave you on how to handle it! :eek: I’m sure the rearing and flipping is a learned behavior if he’s down there eating grass while you get him up, but from your description of his warning signs he’s resorting to it because of some kind of discomfort or unwillingness and the root of that would have to be addressed before driving him again.

@kearleydk;

Hobby Horse you there? Is this a mini thing? Just by chance I met a mini that did pretty much the same thing. Flipping over when put to the cart. Apparently they are capable of the impossible.

:lol: Well, it’s not a “mini thing” except perhaps that as such small, light horses they can do it with less injury than their larger counterparts and they are more than smart enough to figure out that every time they flip, they get to be unhitched. It’s an awfully short fall for a horse that size!

Leia

[Ashemont]

[QUOTE=appybeads;3257914]
I have to agree that though advice is good to be given it is just the tone that some people write, maybe I am being over sensitive :yes:[/QUOTE]

You also have to understand that everyone on this forum is not American nor is English always a first language. If you take the CONTENT of the posts you will see you’ve been given some excellent advice by some very knowledgeable folks :yes:

I’d second the chiropractor. Even if you never intend to drive this horse again it would be in his best interest to make sure he’s done no damage.

As far as his behavior changing, have you considered feed? One of our stallions was EXTREMELY sensitive to feed. Once we found what worked for him he was perfect. But just one feeding of certain other brands and he acted like he wanted to jump out of his skin! :uhoh: It was strange because all of the feeds we used had the same ingredients on the label but there was obviously something different about them.

I sure wish you good luck with this little guy.

[appybeads]

UPDATE

Took the mini to a local trainer. When I took him off the trailer all the stress that his horse had seemed to be lifted. It sounds insane but it was if he knew something was going to happen.

She checked him out from head to toe (she does chiro. stuff and is a natural farrier?) anyways, she only deals with miniature horses. She decided to get out the harness and we harnessed him up and he was good. Longline him around the ring and he was a good boy. So after awhile she got the cart out and let him sniff it, drove it around him in circles etc. he was fine. Hitched him up and checked everything twice and triple. Trainer at his head and talked with him. To make a long story short he did everything he was asked with a little hesitation but didn’t throw the fits like he did with me.

The trainer said that he is a very sensitive horse and that he “got my number”. The mini was so relaxed like I had never seen before and his eye went from “hard eyes” to the “softest eye” I have ever seen.

So he now lives and the trainers house with many other horses as opposed to one other miniature that I also have. It was a good fit for all.
Thanks for all the great advice.

[Jetiki]

Thats great news. I am glad to hear that things are working out for him.

Karen