A while ago, some asked how much is a dog’s nature innate or trained?
Here is some thoughts by one of the better, more experienced dog trainers today:
http://suzanneclothier.com/blog/perfectly-normal
In a way, this also can be said of horses.
They are who they are and not quite what we expect at times.
Well that was one of the best things I’ve read in a LONG time. Thank you Bluey!
LOVE Suzanne Clothier. Read this article before…was remembering a chapter in an old Barbara Woodhouse book about the fact that some dogs just are mentally ill. Kind of like the yellow stallion in the Buck movie…
Suzanne Clothier is absolutely brilliant and really funny. I love the way she looks at animals and the way she explains what she sees 
Extremely well said. As i sit here typing, my current litter is sleeping peacefully in their crate next to me. Thank god i’ve not had an abnormal pup yet, but odds say i will eventually.
oh yeah. And not even as “abnormal” as to be mentally ill- there is only so much nurture can do.
Have had the pleasure? of watching several members of the same litter of dogs grow up in totally different homes. Every. Single. One. is turning out to be extremely reactive, dog-aggressive, snappy, over-responsive to sounds. The heavily socialized from day one pup, the pup who mostly stayed home, the one owned by the “expert”, the one owned by the “my first dog”. Same pattern of not very desirable behavior.
[QUOTE=wendy;5967085]
oh yeah. And not even as “abnormal” as to be mentally ill- there is only so much nurture can do.
Have had the pleasure? of watching several members of the same litter of dogs grow up in totally different homes. Every. Single. One. is turning out to be extremely reactive, dog-aggressive, snappy, over-responsive to sounds. The heavily socialized from day one pup, the pup who mostly stayed home, the one owned by the “expert”, the one owned by the “my first dog”. Same pattern of not very desirable behavior.[/QUOTE]
Another example, our aussie.
We got her at one year old, from the breeder, that had sold her as a puppy to a herding trainer, that got sick and no one cared for his few dogs in the kennel runs, other than half clean and throw some dog food out there.
When we got her, she was skinny, covered in fleas and ticks and absolutely shut down.
If you approached her, she fell into a heap and if you lifted her and tried to get her to stand, she again would fall into a heap.
Our other dogs at that time, saint bernard, norwegian elkhound and three small poodles were completely ignoring her.
She eventually started looking up and getting interested, coming out of her shell and was one of the nicest dogs we ever had.
She slept with our big cat, when we got chicks and kept them the first few days in the bathroom in a cardboard box under a red light, she would climb into the box and push them all under her hair and keep them warm, while she was panting under that light.
She also herded cattle like a dream, with very little training and was my first really good, competitive obedience dog.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a298/Robintoo/catanddog.jpg
A dog with a start as she had came out of her terrible, unsocialized start in life at a critical time growing up to learn to be a good dog, because she was bred to be a good dog anyway.
Good, careful breeding does come thru.
A dog with her history, if of questionable character, may have been a nightmare to try to live with, for the humans and dogs in her life, no matter how much intervention the owner tried.
Suzanne is awesome! I have done a seminar with her and a phone consult. I absolutely love her.
If you haven’t read " If Bones Would Rain from the Sky" I highly recommend it.
[QUOTE=Bluey;5967128]
Another example, our aussie.
We got her at one year old, from the breeder, that had sold her as a puppy to a herding trainer, that got sick and no one cared for his few dogs in the kennel runs, other than half clean and throw some dog food out there.
When we got her, she was skinny, covered in fleas and ticks and absolutely shut down.
If you approached her, she fell into a heap and if you lifted her and tried to get her to stand, she again would fall into a heap.
Our other dogs at that time, saint bernard, norwegian elkhound and three small poodles were completely ignoring her.
She eventually started looking up and getting interested, coming out of her shell and was one of the nicest dogs we ever had.
She slept with our big cat, when we got chicks and kept them the first few days in the bathroom in a cardboard box under a red light, she would climb into the box and push them all under her hair and keep them warm, while she was panting under that light.
She also herded cattle like a dream, with very little training and was my first really good, competitive obedience dog.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a298/Robintoo/catanddog.jpg
A dog with a start as she had came out of her terrible, unsocialized start in life at a critical time growing up to learn to be a good dog, because she was bred to be a good dog anyway.
Good, careful breeding does come thru.
A dog with her history, if of questionable character, may have been a nightmare to try to live with, for the humans and dogs in her life, no matter how much intervention the owner tried.[/QUOTE]
Bluey - thanks for sharing that. Loved the picture! It does give hope. We just got (our third) Scottish Deerhound - a 10 month old bitch. The breeder is well-regarded, but older, and losing interest in the game. The pups he held back from the litter did not get much socialization or much, if any, introduction to living in a home.
Believe me, my husband and I thought long and hard about taking on this kind of challenge. But I admit, we succumbed to the rare opportunity to own the pick female from the last litter of a respected breeder of show and coursing dogs.
We’re one week into it, and it is tough. Our 7 month old Deerhound pups are so happy-go-lucky in comparison. We have fingers and toes crossed we can guide her into becoming a successful member of our home. Deerhounds do have wonderful (the best!) temperaments. I’m counting on that.
By contrast, we have a 9 year old Greyhound we adopted 2 years ago. He’d washed out of several homes prior to us. He is pretty neurotic and needy. I know he’ll never change and we just accept it. But honestly, though it sounds heartless, we find him more annoying than endearing. I’m really hoping our new Deerhound girl won’t be like our Greyhound.
And just for fun, here’s a picture of what 3 Deerhounds, 1 Greyhound (plus one fearless kitty) looks like all together in the family room - lol!
http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y132/TeamNokota/?action=view¤t=Theclan.jpg
:lol:
That is my kind of floor.
No one knows, but best I remember, it took our aussie about two weeks to quit shivering and hiding under chairs and come out to be interacted with.
The breeder told us he had seen this before and not to worry, she would be fine with time and she was.
He also said he would take her back in a minute if she didn’t work out.
Fat chance, once you have one home, well … as you know …
Good luck.
[QUOTE=wendy;5967085]
oh yeah. And not even as “abnormal” as to be mentally ill- there is only so much nurture can do.
Have had the pleasure? of watching several members of the same litter of dogs grow up in totally different homes. Every. Single. One. is turning out to be extremely reactive, dog-aggressive, snappy, over-responsive to sounds. The heavily socialized from day one pup, the pup who mostly stayed home, the one owned by the “expert”, the one owned by the “my first dog”. Same pattern of not very desirable behavior.[/QUOTE]
Are you watching these dogs as their breeder, groomer or trainer? Just curious, because I don’t think you’re a breeder. But whoever the breeder is, they should be informed that this pair that produced this litter should not be bred to each other again. Good breeders know that temperament is even more important than conformation.
For her second litter I bred a bitch to a nice stud who was good tempered if a little squirrely, but nothing harmful or bad. The bitch was a love with a fondness for children and a dynamite hunter. Her only flaw was a hatred for just one other dog I owned. Her first litter by a different stud produced the sweetest pups. Her second litter was damaged goods mentally. One was extremely fearful and shy, another was just aggressive beyond belief (at 8 weeks!) and the most outgoing of the three was one of the worst conformed dogs I ever bred. Needless to say I never bred either of those two again to each other or anyone else!
I raised a scant litter of TWO pups this past spring. My brother got one, I kept one. Their lives couldn’t be more different, I’m a SAHM that homeschools, she was our fifth dog, six cats, huge rambunctious life going camping and outside all the time, very busy and active and not extremely disciplined. My brother is a professional that works 9-5, only has a cat aside from the pup, and his every off minute is with the pup doing camping, hiking, training and socializing.
The dogs are virtual twins-they yawn the same, they have the same mannerisms, likes, dislikes, daily habits, social behavior, they’re twins. I could swap one for the other and it would take my brother a week to notice!
And neither of them are anything like their mother; they’re identical to their father.
The personalities they have now were apparent when they were a week old. There is a lot that can be influenced by a dog’s life but there is an awful lot that is just their nature.
Works the same for my kids but that’s a different discussion. :lol:
I remember when I was really disappointed when I realized that you cannot completely change a dog’s natural temperament. Eventually I’ve come to the realization that they are all a little bit different. Just like us, they all have their own personalities and issues. Training and socialization are important - and some need more of it than others. Some are unsalvageable, yes. Others just need extra help. And some of their quirks I’ve learned to accept and manage.
It’s interesting. The other day I heard someone say that her neighbor’s dog clearly wasn’t socialized like her dog because he didn’t want to play with the other dogs in the neighborhood and got grumbly if they ran at him or came into his yard. Then she said that her dog was a Golden Retriever and her neighbor had a Malinois. A lot of pet owners are very educated on the importance of training and socialization - which are important - but I think that we also have to remember that individual dogs differ and breeds differ.
As a shelter worker I can guarantee that this is true. We see puppies that come in at 5,6 weeks found under a house/rescued from an abuse situation, or turned in from a breeder. Although where they’ve been does aid to how they feel about things and how they react, its already GLARINGLY obvious at this point how these pups are going to play out.
I feel responsible for one pup and it still haunts me.
We had two litters of puppies come into the shelter simultaneously from very different situations. One was a litter of deaf white aussies including one that was deafblind–the other a littler of pups found in a sewage drain, but one of them was white and deaf. Without any other willing fosters, I took both home. The deafblind boy was sensitive; sweet, timid what you would expect from a deafblind puppy.
But the girl from the other litter–she was an absolute fearless maniac. Food aggressive, snappy and snarly, Alpha Dog at 5 weeks. Bullied him around to the max. Even my old momma dog rescue, who is all around Wonder Dog and stand-in mom, couldn’t stand her. I SHOULD have kept her and heavily trained her and reinforced it…but instead, I thought it would be best to place her in a home asap so the new parents could get a start on the home, and I kept the deafblind boy. (he was panning out to be much harder to place). Found this girl the BEST home I could, great couple with an older kid, stay at home mom…I thought I’d picked winners for her. I hid nothing about her alpha self and they were ready.
Roughly one year later we received a call from a kill shelter the next state over–they’d dumped her there. I saw it coming from the day she was 5 weeks old and I wasn’t proactive enough to stop it.
I will never raise another puppy; I have zero desire. Adult dogs will always be my personal preference; I like the established personality for this reason. Not to say they don’t have their own issues but I prefer that to puppies any day.
It’s funny, the switch from “blood will tell” to “rescue is great!” was such a good thing in so many ways and took a lot of snotty attitude out of the general public wrt purebreds. But it just got to be as much of a knee-jerk unthinking attitude to say that all dogs are equal and the only reason for a failed pet is the human side of the relationship.
I think it’s a little unfortunate, though, that one way we’re celebrating the swing back to the middle is to return to the “good breeding will produce good dogs” attitude. It doesn’t. It produces good show dogs, good hunting dogs, good agility dogs, etc. True, in some ways that makes a good dog - I’d rather have my adored dog have good, healthy conformation than not, if just so she’ll have a good, long, healthy life if possible - but honestly, do good breeders really produce better pets than random breeders? Horrible breeders, like puppy mills, create horrible health and mental problems fairly reliably, but do random breeders - people who just don’t bother to neuter the family mutts - really produce dogs that are markedly inferior as pets to those produced by good, responsible breeder? I think dogs in general are pretty “normally” decent, and it takes some major tinkering to produce bad and dangerous qualities.
[QUOTE=vacation1;5969692]
It’s funny, the switch from “blood will tell” to “rescue is great!” was such a good thing in so many ways and took a lot of snotty attitude out of the general public wrt purebreds. But it just got to be as much of a knee-jerk unthinking attitude to say that all dogs are equal and the only reason for a failed pet is the human side of the relationship.
I think it’s a little unfortunate, though, that one way we’re celebrating the swing back to the middle is to return to the “good breeding will produce good dogs” attitude. It doesn’t. It produces good show dogs, good hunting dogs, good agility dogs, etc. True, in some ways that makes a good dog - I’d rather have my adored dog have good, healthy conformation than not, if just so she’ll have a good, long, healthy life if possible - but honestly, do good breeders really produce better pets than random breeders? Horrible breeders, like puppy mills, create horrible health and mental problems fairly reliably, but do random breeders - people who just don’t bother to neuter the family mutts - really produce dogs that are markedly inferior as pets to those produced by good, responsible breeder? I think dogs in general are pretty “normally” decent, and it takes some major tinkering to produce bad and dangerous qualities.[/QUOTE]
The fallacy with that thinking, random bred dogs will produce random characteristics and you won’t know how they breed down the generations, because they will disband and again breed randomly.
Purpose bred dogs, following breed traits, those just have a bit better odds that you will get what you know is in that pedigree.
Good breeders still get surprises, but those are few, most good breeders know what most puppies will be and breed for that, unlike random breeding brings to the table.
Random breeders generally don’t really know what they have or learn, by definition they are breeding randomly and without any idea of what is there.
I think that expecting better temperament or any other characteristic in random bred dogs is just not something I would count on, unlike with dogs with a good breeder with a long history behind them.
With random breed dogs, I want to see what we have in that dog before saying it is this or that.
With dogs of a breed, while there may be surprises, I would generally expect breed traits to mostly be there and so I can pick what will suit for what my needs in dogs are.
Ever got a little puppy at the shelter, from a small, sweet dam, expecting a smaller grown dog, that then grew to be a touchy, growling 100+ lbs?:eek:
Happen to a friend.
It’s not that I think good breeders can’t reliably produce better temperaments, just that I question whether they really make it a priority. I used to assume they did, the good ones anyway, but the more I’m around serious dog people, the less I think this is true. The first priority is always a working function, whether that job is to be show dog or a hunting dog or whatever. Temperament is always secondary, and frequently breeders are content to sweep problems under the handy “that’s the breed” rug when their terriers are snappy assholes or their GSDs are neurotically bossy.
Yeah, I think you have to choose your “good” breeders carefully. I have known some breeders of show dogs and some of hunting dogs that have knowingly bred dogs with temperment issues that, if passed on, would make puppies not good candidates for pets. But they werent breeding for pets… One can only hope that they found appropriate homes for any pets not suitable for the intended purpose. I think it is a difficulty especially in breeds where many are not sutable for novice or casual owners.
So I guess to be a “good” breeder, one would have to breed for at least a predictable or breed typical temperment and then have good options for puppies produced. When I was looking, I liked to see breeders boast about their pet placements as well as their show and performance dogs.
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