S/O: Are health certificates and Coggins worthless?

[JP60]

The vision I had was two fold. A coggins report is sent to a national database in both a PDF form and row data. This is either sent by the vet or the testing company.

I get a PDF file I can print out and carry with me, but I can also sent it to a show ahead of time. Either way, upon arriving at the show, when picking up registration the owner would show the coggins document and the office can then check it against what is on file nationally. That would work on stopping switching or altering coggins files.

it would be difficult to mandate the chipping of every horse breed for their are two many mom and pop breeders. I guess you could require it for shows, but unless it carries current medical data, my understanding is that the chip mainly just IDs the horse.

However, either or, both/and…it would be good to start something now so we don’t slip backwards (as pointed out about marriage blood tests).

[Mango20]

I’m fine with the annual coggins test as a measure to help protect the whole horse population (agreeing with those who say it means very little to THIS horse on THIS date, but it has been a proven tool to contain the disease in general).

I think the HC is a waste of time and money for a horse just going to a show and going back home again.

[Highflyer]

The issue is that the Coggins needs to not only be valid (a real unphotoshop edited Coggins test that is actually legible and not submitted by email) but also valid for the horse it’s being submitted for. The only way that works is if there’s an easy way to verify horse identity, both for the vet and for the show management/ non horsey law enforcement etc.

Right now, you could hypothetically enter an event on “Sparky”, owned by Britney Spears, but send in with it a Coggins for “Bob,” owned by Justin Timberlake. At most, I as the secretary will hopefully notice that Sparky is listed on the entry as an 8 year old chestnut mare and Bob is described (or pictured) on the Coggins as a 24 year old Paint gelding. If they are both 6 year old bay TB geldings, or even if one is 5 and the other is 6, I’ve got no reason not to accept it. I’ve been to exactly one competition (PC Championships at the KY Horse Park twenty years ago) where someone actually looked at the Coggins test and then at my horse in an attempt to verify that they matched.

As Gumtree mentioned, microchipping is happening for TBs, as well as most WB registries and some USEF hunter/ jumper classes. My guess is that USEA YEH/ FEH classes will quickly follow suit and eventually all USEF competitions will require a microchip. If you had to list a horse’s microchip number on its entry form and it was also on its Coggins test, and that Coggins test could be pulled up electronically directly from the AAEP to verify that it was unedited (or similar) that would make it very easy to eliminate casual fraud.

I suspect though that things will go further-- the vet will scan the horse’s microchip and then scan a vaccine barcode and boom, it will magically appear on your horse’s USEF record. But that’s still a generation out probably-- the technology is mostly there but not accessible enough yet.

[QUOTE=JP60;8990923]
The vision I had was two fold. A coggins report is sent to a national database in both a PDF form and row data. This is either sent by the vet or the testing company.

I get a PDF file I can print out and carry with me, but I can also sent it to a show ahead of time. Either way, upon arriving at the show, when picking up registration the owner would show the coggins document and the office can then check it against what is on file nationally. That would work on stopping switching or altering coggins files.

it would be difficult to mandate the chipping of every horse breed for their are two many mom and pop breeders. I guess you could require it for shows, but unless it carries current medical data, my understanding is that the chip mainly just IDs the horse.

However, either or, both/and…it would be good to start something now so we don’t slip backwards (as pointed out about marriage blood tests).[/QUOTE]

[JP60]

To highflyer…I’ll grant you that, but a system can wait till technology catches up or it can move forward in increments. As a software developer and system’s analyst, I can “see” the process you speak of, but if it starts with building the DB first, doing data collection and trying to push enforcement…it is a start.

A RFID ID coupled with a national DB of data and cheap chip readers is closer than you think. couple that with an official app on a smartphone and you got a very good tracking/storage/reporting system almost any venue can use.

The macro components

Microchip (already made)
Insertion of chip (one time fee)
One time purchase of scanner (81-279 dollars)
Set up of national DB to collect coggins/vaccine data)
Vet can have app that uploads when he does vaccine and scans chip
Coggins test company send data ID by chip number
App on PC/smart phone that allows Show office to take chip ID and pull up horse data with picture.

Most of those steps are already there, the software is not next gen technology. The only thing missing is will and money.

[Highflyer]

No, I agree the tech is mostly there-- it’s the vets you need the next generation of. Many of the ones I’ve met are not too technologically inclined.

[Ready_To_Riot]

Slight side bar, but I’m always worried about it. I have my horses 5 miles from the KY state line. They live in TN. Our Vet is in KY (5 miles). Since all their paper work says KY except my address on the paper work, will it ever pose a proble? I get an HC when traveling to Ky because they live in TN. Luckily it’s never been questioned, but I’m planning on doing a several HJ shows this year in the state of TN and fear there will be an issue when my coggins saying Ky is presented. Anyone else have this issue?

[Ready_To_Riot]

Just caught up on reading the thread. Microchipping dogs has been around for a good minute. Scan the dog and all the information put into the database is there. I feel switching this over to horses and their shot record seems like something that could easily be done. Making a “vet only” accessible tab in the database that can only be unlocked and updated by the vet also seems pretty easy. It would also give the vets something else to charge for. An “inputting information” fee. Or not charge for since they do everything on the computer now anyway.

This really seems like the easiest thing to set up. Also would cut down on stolen horses! Someone should start this. It seems like you’d be come an overnight millionaire.

[Highflyer]

[QUOTE=Ready To Riot;8991448]
Slight side bar, but I’m always worried about it. I have my horses 5 miles from the KY state line. They live in TN. Our Vet is in KY (5 miles). Since all their paper work says KY except my address on the paper work, will it ever pose a proble? I get an HC when traveling to Ky because they live in TN. Luckily it’s never been questioned, but I’m planning on doing a several HJ shows this year in the state of TN and fear there will be an issue when my coggins saying Ky is presented. Anyone else have this issue?[/QUOTE]

My horses are in MD, my vet lives/ has her practice in PA, and I compete in MD/PA/VA/DE regularly. It shouldn’t be an issue, assuming your vet is licensed to practice in the state your horses live in (which I’m sure is the case.)

[faybe]

Vet, here… for those saying HCs are relatively worthless: I can’t tell you how many times I’ve gone to write an HC and found a fever, respiratory infection, colic, or some other ailment that ultimately stopped the horse from shipping. Were the owners/trainers pissed? Yes, more often than not. But I won’t write an HC for a sick horse. Knock wood, I’ve never had one of those turn into something reportable, but it sure was good for that horse that they didn’t have to get on a trailer that week.

Are HCs perfect and a guarantee of good health? No, of course not, but they’re a damn site better than no eyes on the horse at all.

[flashwhitelock]

[QUOTE=mychestnutvalentine;8990073]
No because they have newer coggins that include the picture of the horse and are more detailed. Would like to see someone edit one of those![/QUOTE]

Only if your vet uses the new type with the picture.

[OTTBs]

[QUOTE=Highflyer;8991500]
My horses are in MD, my vet lives/ has her practice in PA, and I compete in MD/PA/VA/DE regularly. It shouldn’t be an issue, assuming your vet is licensed to practice in the state your horses live in (which I’m sure is the case.)[/QUOTE] I’m not aware of any rules that state the horse can’t be trailered over state lines to see a vet, so even this shouldn’t be necessary.

[mbv]

Mandatory testing for EIA (aka - doing a Coggins test or the EIA ELISA) for interstate travel has dramatically reduced the incidence of EIA in the United States since the 1970s. Check out the graph here: https://www.aphis.usda.gov/vs/nahss/equine/eia/eia_info_sheet.pdf
We are really lucky that the test & cull/quarantine program for EIA has worked so well here but need to remember that there are still new cases of EIA every year even though it has happily become rare.

[CindyCRNA]

I wonder what percentage of horse owners pull a coggins? I mean, back yard people. Before I got into eventing, I didn’t know what a coggins was. If it weren’t required for show, I wonder how many would do it.

[kmwines01]

Just to clarify what one poster previously mentioned with microchips… Dog microchips carry only the owners info and emergency contact information. Vets do not get any vaccine records associated with the chip. Rabies vaccinations are proven with a tag and certificate.

Microchips would be great for horses because you can verify identity and ownership. Considering no vaccinations are required by law for horses I doubt there will be ever be a database with that information.

Online programs that allow vets to do health certificates and Coggins make it much easier to track that info. But even with that data entry is important as there can be multiple accounts or horses depending on if somebody misspelled something or used all caps or separated a farm name, etc.

Vets have to be accredited by the USDA in a particular state to write a health certificate from that state which is a separate credential from their state license.

[flyingchange]

I am unclear on how these data and this pub demonstrate a relationship between “mandatory testing” for coggins and decreased prevalence of the infection. Yes, they do show that during the time period in question, reported EIA prevalence decreased in the population sampled (show horses/race horses/horses going to other events), but how do they demonstrate a causative effect?

mbv [INDENT] "Mandatory testing for EIA (aka - doing a Coggins test or the EIA ELISA) for interstate travel has dramatically reduced the incidence of EIA in the United States since the 1970s. Check out the graph here: https://www.aphis.usda.gov/vs/nahss/…info_sheet.pdf
We are really lucky that the test & cull/quarantine program for EIA has worked so well here but need to remember that there are still new cases of EIA every year even though it has happily become rare. "
[/INDENT]

[kmwines01]

What else would have caused a drop? There has not been any advances in prevention such as vaccination. The physical culling of positive animals take them out of circulation to spread the disease. That’s how disease eradication works for diseases that don’t have vaccines.

[poltroon]

On the EIA data/PDF, one thing that they do with the numbers that I don’t like is that they’re all in percentages. To me, it’s also interesting to know the absolute numbers of horses who died or were debilitated with the disease. When it was “hot” in the early 70’s, it was still only a few hundred horses who died of the disease each year. Thousands of horses were euthanized a year due to positive tests in the 70s and 80s. Today I believe the number of positive tests annually is typically less than 50.

I think it’s clear that euthanizing positives, some of whom were carriers and infectious, is how that number got to be low. But, I am still personally conflicted as to whether that was the smartest possible policy at the time. For example, if we had a vaccine, vaccinated horses would test positive and have to be euthanized unless the law were changed… which possibly affected the interest in developing a vaccine.

Now that the carrier count is low, it probably is the right policy to continue.

All that said, in California it’s really uncommon to pull a Coggins unless the horse is leaving the state. I’ve had horses for over 30 years, have shown all over the state, and never paid for one.

[mbv]

You’re right; there is no proof of causality there. Before the 70s there wasn’t a reliable test for EIA so just having appropriate diagnostics I’m sure was helpful. Other things like decreased sharing of needles and general knowledge of blood borne pathogens could have also contributed as weel. But I would still maintain that identifying infected horses and effectively removing them from the horse population was, and continues to be, an important control measure for EIA.

[kmwines01]

[QUOTE=CindyCRNA;8992111]
I wonder what percentage of horse owners pull a coggins? I mean, back yard people. Before I got into eventing, I didn’t know what a coggins was. If it weren’t required for show, I wonder how many would do it.[/QUOTE]

Vets should be recommending it for all horses they see for annual vaccines,etc. One because its an infectious disease and population monitoring system and two, you never know when that horse may need to go somewhere due to a hurricane, flood, etc.

[lecoeurtriste]

Last March at a USDF show, the TD accused me of showing a different horse than the one listed on my coggins test (apparently, she went through all of the paper entries and coggins tests to ensure there were no discrepancies). The horse in question is a 4yo RPSI gelding who is half Knabbstrupper…he is a leopard spotted silver bay with a brand and microchip…pretty unique looking individual. She insisted that even though the coggins showed his brand (with unique number under the ‘bridge’) and unique spots, that he was a chestnut (not silver bay as written on the coggins). We had a genetics discussion regarding modifying genes and the presence of black body points verifying he couldn’t be chestnut. It got ugly because she didn’t have a chip scanner and was convinced I was trying to scam the show. She ended up giving me a ‘warning’ and directed me to change the color listed with the breed registry and USEF! Instead, I had the horse genetically tested for color and submitted the report to the USEF and now carry a copy with my coggins. I would love for all licensed events to have chip scanners and access to the USEF/USEA/USDF databases at the minimum–being able to upload coggins and vaccination dates to them would be a bonus.