Tufts University Vet School Hoarding of Animals Research Consortium has some excellent info on animal hoarding, including its current and proposed status in the DSM.
[QUOTE=Waterwitch;5150794]
It would be really great if some of you would stick to what I think I think is your real issue, which is you are concerned that she may have more horses than she can manage, and not expand this to the free for all on her character and breeding program. Just because someone doesnāt breed what you like, that doesnāt mean they are breeding worthless crap.
The fact is that PP does carefully - ad nauseum - consider the breedings she does. Yes she is blending different breeds together, but these are breeds with complimentary phenotypes, and she is breeding a small number of foals, occasionally, towards a well-defined GOAL. She is breeding for a PURPOSE, and thinking long term about the results, which is more than can be said about some or most breeders on this forum. Funny, but it seems to me that she has sold all of the few foals she has bred into new homes, not sending them down the road to the auction. Selling youngstock is something many breeders here are having a hard time doing if you read the many posts on the condition of the market.
Is her breeding program unconventional - yes. Thoughtless - no.[/QUOTE]
Waterwitch-
Iāve tried to avoid personal attacks on PPās character. I donāt think thatās going to help anything. But the bottom line is, the fact that she seems to have financial issues that are pouring into the upkeep of her farm is absolutely related to the breeding program.
Sheās posted quite a bit this year in regards to breeding her mares. A month ago, she started a thread about pasture breeding the cremello filly with her older stallion. In that thread, she said she had another stallion chosen for the filly, but āthings fell throughā so she decided last minute to put her out with the stallion. Despite generally agreeing with you regarding the fact that, in the past, PP has appeared to carefully think out her breedings, that whole thread really came off like she couldnāt get the stallion she wanted (for whatever reason), so she used the one she had in hopes of producing a foal.
Sheās also posted quite a bit this year regarding her health/financial concerns for herself. Before she left for the WEG, she expressed a need to sell ājust a few more thingsā on ebay so that she could afford hay for the horses before she left. I think itās abundantly clear that PP is a āwhere thereās a will, thereās a wayā type- she obviously works very hard to do what she does.
But to imply that itās inconsiderate to bring up her breeding practices in light of her self-admitted financial issues is not exactly accurate. Despite having been unsuccessful this season, she has been actively attempting to add to her herd. And pointing out the fact that most of what she intends to produce will be, essentially, grade horses that are extremely difficult to market, and that are overflowing auction pens and rescue barns these days is not too far off the mark, either.
Itās just important to keep in mind that a lot of what AC is publicly identifying as unacceptable could easily be remedied by spending money that would be spent on a stud fee, feed for the broodmare she got from crestline, the saddle she purchased a few days before leaving for the WEG (or one of the several older Passiers sheās picked up this summer), etc. on fencing or shelter for the horses she already has.
[QUOTE=Waterwitch;5150794]
It would be really great if some of you would stick to what I think I think is your real issue, which is you are concerned that she may have more horses than she can manage, and not expand this to the free for all on her character and breeding program. Just because someone doesnāt breed what you like, that doesnāt mean they are breeding worthless crap.
The fact is that PP does carefully - ad nauseum - consider the breedings she does. Yes she is blending different breeds together, but these are breeds with complimentary phenotypes, and she is breeding a small number of foals, occasionally, towards a well-defined GOAL. She is breeding for a PURPOSE, and thinking long term about the results, which is more than can be said about some or most breeders on this forum. Funny, but it seems to me that she has sold all of the few foals she has bred into new homes and hasnāt sent them down the road to the auction. Selling youngstock is something many breeders here are having a hard time doing if you read the many posts on the condition of the market.
Is her breeding program unconventional - yes. Thoughtless - no.[/QUOTE]
This :winkgrin: Iāll bet dollars to doughnuts that none of you got your hair this on fire about Pwynnormans breeding program. Matter of fact because she went with what she believed in Iām pretty sure that 100ās of you ooooohhhhād and awwwwwād over Teddy and his acomplishments now what was his breeding let me think oh thats right TB/Shetland/Arab I think. Not every āgradeā horse is A a mut or B crap. How many of your papered ponies did Teddy smoke every year.
It is PP"s right to breed whatever she chooses. If you donāt agree or like it mind your own. A lot of you are proffessionals in this field and you have no idea how baleful you come across. I would hesitate to go to most of you based on your reactions to one person that you do not personally know or have full discloser on the situations as my Grandmother would say with an eye roll āBless your heartsā
Iām almost 100% certain that the adult thing to do would be to know the truth before opening our mouths.
Just thought I would mention that animal hoarding is considered a symptom of either OCD or an attachment issue - it may or may not make it as itās own disorder in the DSM-V.
The determination as to whether it is treated as a symptom of OCD or an attachment disorder depends on the psychosocial as well as presentation. I think āanimal hoarderā is a term mainly used by vets and animal advocates, but Iām not sure. When I am treating someone, I simply say āhoarderā, meaning they cannot get rid of a certain thing.
By posting this, I am not identifying PP as a āhoarderā and am merely offering this as information to go along with the discussion. Thomas is correct that there is not technically a diagnosis for animal hoarding, but there has been discussion about it in recent months in terms of the ICD and DSM codes. The issue has gained wide-spread attention due to a couple of shows on television.
[QUOTE=hackinaround;5150857]
Iām almost 100% certain that the adult thing to do would be to know the truth before opening our mouths.[/QUOTE]
What part of the truth? The truth in reference to AC? Orā¦ ?
PP has 12,079 posts here. She joined this board a month before I did. She has opened up soooo many aspects of her life to the people here. For that reason, a lot of people really like her a lot. For the same reasons, a lot of people have questioned some of the decisions sheās made over the past few years. You open yourself up to scrutiny when you establish yourself as a breeder of horses, and then make it known to the public that you are hoping people buy your things on ebay to buy hay, and taking a two week vacation without pay to go to the WEG. All just a few days after having pasture bred one of your horses. None of that stuff is conjecture from the media or AC in Maine. Itās straight from PPās posts here on these boards, and if thatās not the ātruthā, then Iām not sure what isā¦
How about you ALL resist the overwhelming temptation to exercise your keyboards, and let the suituation play out.
[QUOTE=Sportpony;5150523]
I do keep thinking of this with a sense of great sadness ā¦ especially coming after a trip that must have required a major effort on her part and what would probably have been a major highlight of her life ā¦ not only just attending but being able to ride in demonstrations at the WEG games.
This should have been a major triumph in PPās life, something she could look back on with great pleasure years down the road. Now she will always remember the disaster ā¦ not the pleasure of a once-in-a-lifetime experience.[/QUOTE]
I feel the same.
Plus a lot more paranoid about going on vacation.
I hope justice is done (whatever that may be), I hope the horses end up happy (however that happens), and I wish PP an acceptable and speedy outcome.
Best advice EVER.
With all due respect, I think Pwynn (who I consider a friend) would have been tarred and feathered if AC had seized her horses when she was out of town - regardless of Teddy or not. If she were breeding AND unable to care for her horses (ponies) properly, no one would care if it were Pwynn or Iron Spring or Calumet.
I think pretty much anyone whoās had their horses taken by AC as been treated much the same around here. Nor am I aware how much patience folks here have had for their circumstances. The woman in Orange was apparently so ill she died within months of the seizure at 50-something. No one felt sorry for her (and I am not saying they should have - I am just saynā). So I am unsure why being a āpopular posterā changes what it normal behavior for this BB?
I have zero opinion on the PP issue - donāt know yet - too soon to tell how valid the seizure was. But I do find what appears to be a double standard on this board to be rather disturbing.
It is unusual for AC to take on horses if they feel they have any choice, budgets being what they are (or, more likely, arenāt) these days. But that does not mean they donāt/canāt overreact or get things wrong now and again. IME, it is AC who usually gets the benefit of the doubt around here in seizure cases.
If they are wrong and PP has been properly caring for her horses, then it is truly a tragedy for all concerned. For PP and for all the horses who do need help, but may not get it because the AC got one wrong.
SCFarm
[QUOTE=FrenchFrytheEqHorse;5150837]
Waterwitch-
Iāve tried to avoid personal attacks on PPās character. I donāt think thatās going to help anything. But the bottom line is, the fact that she seems to have financial issues that are pouring into the upkeep of her farm is absolutely related to the breeding program.
Sheās posted quite a bit this year in regards to breeding her mares. A month ago, she started a thread about pasture breeding the cremello filly with her older stallion. In that thread, she said she had another stallion chosen for the filly, but āthings fell throughā so she decided last minute to put her out with the stallion. Despite generally agreeing with you regarding the fact that, in the past, PP has appeared to carefully think out her breedings, that whole thread really came off like she couldnāt get the stallion she wanted (for whatever reason), so she used the one she had in hopes of producing a foal.
Sheās also posted quite a bit this year regarding her health/financial concerns for herself. Before she left for the WEG, she expressed a need to sell ājust a few more thingsā on ebay so that she could afford hay for the horses before she left. I think itās abundantly clear that PP is a āwhere thereās a will, thereās a wayā type- she obviously works very hard to do what she does.
But to imply that itās inconsiderate to bring up her breeding practices in light of her self-admitted financial issues is not exactly accurate. Despite having been unsuccessful this season, she has been actively attempting to add to her herd. And pointing out the fact that most of what she intends to produce will be, essentially, grade horses that are extremely difficult to market, and that are overflowing auction pens and rescue barns these days is not too far off the mark, either.
Itās just important to keep in mind that a lot of what AC is publicly identifying as unacceptable could easily be remedied by spending money that would be spent on a stud fee, feed for the broodmare she got from crestline, the saddle she purchased a few days before leaving for the WEG (or one of the several older Passiers sheās picked up this summer), etc. on fencing or shelter for the horses she already has.[/QUOTE]
whats wrong with selling stuff you own to create income?
not everyone can have a trust fund, well paid husbands or high paying jobsā¦ some of us get by (alone) and sacrifice to have horsesā¦
i literally cant believe the judgement on this thread, the speculation, the meannessā¦
this entire thing should be a HUGE wake up call for ANYONE posing on the boardsā¦ do NOT post anything personal. and for gods sake, dont dream, dont think out loud, etc etc.
in other wordsā¦ it is very very clear that any and everything someone says will be used against them in the most creative ways by folks that have never met you and will never have to see the damage they cause.
i am sick about all of this and dont know why this thread is allowed to o on when it is clearly cyber bullying.
45k hits? close to 500 posts?
come on!
Actually, when you go on vacation posting on the internet about it isnāt the easiest way to get targeted for robbery. Think about how many locals know you are gone: pet/house sitters, anyone at the post office if you do a mail hold or mail starts piling up, newspaper and othe delivery people, neighbors or people who regularly pass by and know your schedule, and the friends of all of these people. It makes you not want to leave your house. They do make mailboxes that have hollow bases that lock so your mail just drops down safe and out of sight, but thatās only one factor you can limit. You never know who a reliable person might mention things to, and that person is a professional thief or a semipro on the lookout for empty places. And the amount of vandalism sounds like young hoodlums who not only steal things for kicks but love to trash places.
My aunt and uncle had a house vandalized years ago and it turned out to be the honor student next door and his buddies-and it turned out that the little b#($(#$# had records a mile long, but mommie and daddy would buy the people off; it didnāt work with my aunt and uncle since they sued the parents for damages and won. The strange thing was that the things that were stolen were dumped in a creek, and that theft was never the motive apparently.
We really donāt have facts in this case, so I am willing to wait. Yes, AC needed to do something finding them without water, but we do know from PPs posts that she had purchased a 100 gallon water trough, and we can clearly see it in the photos (new looking Rubbermaid trough), so there was more than just the old bathtub there for water.
The news clip was clearly trying to mislead with the photo of the old bathtub, while ignoring the new Rubbermaid trough (you can even see the logo on it). That is what they do to add drama.
PP also said she had hired a person to come by and check on them. She had purchased round bales of hay before the trip, according to her posts.
SO while every one is guessing, here is another possible scenario:
PP has had a horse or two get loose in the past (report and complaint a year ago, so that may be the āover a yearā thing). She āmayā only use the electric tape fence for pasture WHILE SHE IS HOME, and can keep the generator/electric fence running/on.
Since she was going away, she may have decided to ācreateā the smaller areas, using what she had (old gates, etc) to secure them when the electric would not be on.
IF they are usually turned out on the 8 acres, with electric fence, they MAY be able to get to a sheltered area, or dense woods??, somewhere on the property that we canāt see on the carefully chosen areas videoed.
If the horses were out of the hay she brought in before leaving, it may have been a case of her underestimating how much they would eat, once she pulled them into the more secured areas, and off the grass. They may have just run out, actually likely as they were in decent weight.
That too could have been addressed IF who ever she said she had coming to check on them, had actually done their job. They may have had instructions on how to start the generator to get the pump for water when needed.
Although I would not keep horses like that, she may not either, except for trying to find a way to enable her to go on her dream trip.
As for the shelter, she may know that even with shelter, the horses prefer a protected area in the woods in bad weather, so tried to just put up something (cheap tents) to satisfy the regulations - knowing the horses were quite happy to use the woods/ravine, and that is where they would go anyway.
Possible?
[QUOTE=Thomas_1;5150393]
Iām of the view that what it means is keeping a higher than usual number of pets without having the ability to properly house or care for them, while at the same time denying this inability.
So do please explain what you think being an animal hoarder is and why you think that PP didnāt fit that definition?[/QUOTE]
I donāt think 6 horses and a few dogs/cats would be considered hoarding. And it is a grey area in terms of her ability to care for them.
I knew a woman who had 25-30 horses and 25-30 spotted asses. Interestingly she left Massachusetts when the SPCA and creditors were on her case and moved to Maine. SHE was a hoarder - cut and dried case. She had 5 stallions who never left their stalls and some of whom were not even halter broken and whose stalls did not even get cleaned so they were literally standing on a mountain of shit. She had 25-30 stalls that were never cleaned. She had skinny horses and often the mares would be outside with no water in the heat of summer. They were thin and the ones who werenāt thin were unthrifty looking. Not just knots in their manes and tails. I could not get the SPCA to do anything except one time I told them exactly which stalls to look in for the worst cases and they went once, she agreed to get rid of a few horses and then she moved.
THAT is a hoarder.
What people are discussing with PP is primarily based on a short video clip of footage intended to make the case look as bad as possible. When I heard the reported call it a āshocking caseā and then saw fat horses I sort of wrote the rest off. Those horses do not look neglected. The bay is a little ribby but you have no specific information on why he might be that way - she might have just gotten him, he might be in a growth spurtā¦honestly, he didināt look shockingly thin to me.
Really, maybe she is a hoarder based on the strictest definition of the term. Maybe she is not. There are a lot of maybeās. She has been a long time member of this forum and positive contributor for a long time, based on that I think people should cut her some slack until it is known what the real story is.
Thereās been so much speculation here already that Iām going to offer some that is just as reasonable. PP has been severely criticized for going to WEG despite tight finances. Well, it can be just as reasonably said that she went, despite tight finances, because she viewed it as a tremendous opportunity to make contacts. To be able to say that she was chosen as a demonstration rider at WEG is a tremendous marketing coup which would only bolster her reputation as an instructor. And in that context at WEG, she would be in the enviable position to meet people who might be interested in her foals and breeding program.
[QUOTE=poltroon;5150951]I feel the same.
Plus a lot more paranoid about going on vacation.
I hope justice is done (whatever that may be), I hope the horses end up happy (however that happens), and I wish PP an acceptable and speedy outcome.[/QUOTE]
Ditto both of these.
Also, thank you to the posters who have pointed out that just because her stallion is a Half Arabian (even at 99.99% Arabian the registry will always call him Half) does not mean he is ācrapā or āgradeā
Please donāt tell my National TT/Regional champion mare two of her kids are ācrap grade stallionsā (fwiw, theyāre doing quite well in the show ring with their new owners) because she had a fling with a pinto.
[QUOTE=pinecone;5150518]
I think it is naively sweet that members here want to help PP, but I agree with the other posters whoāve pointed out it would just be enabling her irresponsible behavior. [/QUOTE]
Who is to say the help would not come in the form of providing immediate help in terms of shelter, blankets and whatever else is necessary to keep her horses healthy in the short term while helping to rehome them? I really doubt people are going to start and keep sending money, supplies or anything else without indication that either ACO was way off base or that PP is making changes she needs to make to better care for herself - even if that includes fewer animals. Give people a little more credit. To jump to the conclusion that she is not worthy of some assistance ion a time of crisis is ā¦wellā¦cold.
even the above post by Sketcher, while from the heart is also assuming quite a bit.
the tone of this thread has changedā¦ now instead of innocent until proven guilty we have people saying "well, as long as she downgrades, of gets her life in order " etc.
it isnāt up to US to decide what is right or wrong for PP or anyone else!
if you feel the desire to offer help - that is super, but to do it only because PP will change her life to something you think it should be - is well controlling.
[QUOTE=FrenchFrytheEqHorse;5150893]
You open yourself up to scrutiny when you establish yourself as a breeder of horses, and then make it known to the public that you are hoping people buy your things on ebay to buy hay, and taking a two week vacation without pay to go to the WEG. [/QUOTE]
OTOH we hear people talk all the time about how the boarders need to pay their board on time and many boarding operations run on a very narrow margin or on a loss. This is considered normal to operate a business like this in the horse industry - where you are a boarder or two away from bankruptcy. And it is accepted as a normakl course of business. Most horse farms are not large, wealthy operations.
I think some breeders look at producing a foal as an asset (rather than the liability they generally are, not necessarily a good business decision) and hope that producing a foal gives you a product to sell in the spring and hopefully some cash flow.
I lived on a breeding arm many years ago and remember the owners mindsetā¦if only I could sell this foal for x then everything will be fine this monthā¦or if I breed x number of mares, one or two foals will sell right away and I can find a way to move the others before winter.
And these folks are the saddest ones of all. All the money and prestige and fancy friends and stuff they have isnāt enough to make them feel good about themselves. They still have to dance on the misfortunes of others to feel good about themselves.
That is a tragedy. For them.
Whatever ppās problems are or arenāt, I hope it all comes out well for her and her animals. Which is what I hope for all of us.
Liz
I think this scenario is very possible. And FWIW I used to use an old bath tub for water. When we sold that farm the purchasers asked us to leave the tub:lol:
