I just wish there were three sides to a run in shelter on her property.
And, I don’t hate her, I think she’s a nice person, from her posts, but I think she doesn’t make good decisions about her animals, and has poor priorities. And, I think the people who think the way she keeps her property and horses is ok have poor standards, as well.
[QUOTE=fivehorses;5155840]
agreed, but alluding to it is also in bad form.[/QUOTE]
Sorry didn’t mean to offend, but my point is that there is so much more than an news article can explain.
She’s hiring a lawyer, and I don’t want to share details if it’s going to cause problems for her legally, but at the same time it’s hard to not say anything at all when there people here flogging her while making assumptions about what she has and hasn’t done. But perhaps I should step away from the thread and let everyone say what they want without trying to point out that everyone here doesn’t know the full story.
:uhoh:
Show me someone who said they agree totally with her standard of care and property. Show me those people who you think you have a right to sit around and judge. It’s irrelevant if we choose to keep our horses differently than she does; none of us make the laws. The only thing relevant is if she broke the law, if the horses were without water. They can’t slap a no shelter charge on her in October if the law states one isn’t required till November. They can’t charge her with loose horses if her horses were contained that day. They can’t charge her with things they think might happen in the future. You don’t want this country headed in that direction.
And, I think the people who think the way she keeps her property and horses is ok have poor standards, as well.
I agree. It just kills me that people think it is OK to slack on caring for your horses so you can take a vacation. I would have LOVED a trip to the WEG, but hey, I have R.E.S.P.O.N.S.I.B.I.L.I.T.I.E.S. that take up my income leaving me with less to spend on W.A.N.T.S.
If you have shithole of a farm with bad fencing, you owe it to your neighbors NOT to leave town for two weeks. I feel sorry for her neighbors. Can I tell you about my neighbors? They used to leave their dogs out back for weeks with no water while they went to the mountains. We hated them. Their dogs got out and became nuisances. And one of your horses is a stallion? Can she cover the vet bill when he gets the neighbor’s mare pregnant? If you were my neighbor and left town for two weeks and your stallion got loose… I’d probably take the guy to the vet for some brain surgery.
And what people like this do is encourage municipalities to disallow horses and make harder regulations because they can’t bother to be responsible for their own property. I realize not all farms will be meticulous and standards of horse care differ, but safe fencing, adequate forage and adequate water are BASICS. My horse is in a pasture with 2 other horses- one a mini and they can drain a big tank of water half way in one day. If you can’t get the basics correct 365 days a year, board your horses, sell your horses…but for the love of god, stop breeding them.
[QUOTE=fivehorses;5154814]
Uh, no, google, or msn live, etc have been around more than a few years.[/QUOTE]
Google Street View launched in mid-2007 and was very, very limited (some streets in San Francisco and a few other big cities). It has taken years to add more, and frankly, I’m surprised that PP’s road was even on there.
Google Maps, with the satellite photography is several years older, and the satellite images they used were even older than that.
Yes, the pictures and images in the news reports are most recent, but any photographer of videographer with even the tiniest bit of experience can take images that show the best or worst of the very same property. Guess which makes for better supporting material for an animal cruelty/seizure story?
Wow, Another Round, bet there are a lot of us negligent horse owners who leave their horses alone for 12 hours. It’s called jobs–8 hours plus lunch plus commute times plus an errand or two–easy 12 hours. Some jobs are 12 hour shifts plus commute times such as hospital nurses. Vehicles break down, families have emergencies, stuff happens!
Some folks travel for jobs and horses get fed/checked on according to horse sitter’s schedule. Had one that was a mobile equine vet tech who started her day at the same time but depending on how the vet’s day which often turned into night, dinner was sometimes on the late side. Was it ideal? No, but we had good fencing and she had orders not to spare putting out the hay every day for those just in case she ran late days. Another was a construction worker–long days in the summer, normal days in the winter–they adjusted according to his schedule.
I’ve boarded at barns where the horses are fed about 5pm and no one looks
at them again until the morning other than boarders visiting and riding their horses. Was at one barn where the BM did do a night check which consisted of giving each horse a cookie but never looked in water buckets even in hot weather, even when boarders were picking up the slack and refilling buckets for all. Neither were second-rate facilities.
[QUOTE=AnotherRound;5155854]
I just wish there were three sides to a run in shelter on her property.
And, I don’t hate her, I think she’s a nice person, from her posts, but I think she doesn’t make good decisions about her animals, and has poor priorities. And, I think the people who think the way she keeps her property and horses is ok have poor standards, as well.[/QUOTE]
This is the crux of the matter. Good post.
And I see you’ve already been attacked. Leaving a horse for 12 hours without water? Who knows that? If it were (and it probably wasn’t) only 12 hours I’d still call AC. Horses need water, and horses will colic without water.The bottom line is that the pictures speak for themselves. As do the prior conviction and the pending charges from earlier this year.
The thing I noticed right away on the TV video is that there were several paper grain sacks. They did not appear to have been there long, because they weren’t damaged by sun or rain, and had not blown away. I didn’t think that someone inclined to abandon/neglect her animals would have taken the time, or spent the money, to buy sacked feed.
TV - or any media photographer - is not going to put the property in best light. That isn’t what they do.
I agree that there is much more than meets the eye.
PP doesn’t owe any of us anything, but I hope she returns here at some point. In the meantime, I am hoping for the best.
[QUOTE=AppJumpr08;5155866]
But perhaps I should step away from the thread and let everyone say what they want without trying to point out that everyone here doesn’t know the full story.
:uhoh:[/QUOTE]
Respectfully, I doubt you know the full story either. You may know her side of the story, but no matter how over-reaching AC might be, they won’t seize animals without some probable cause. There are likely details that have not been shared with the media or made public lest they compromise the investigation.
ETA: The media takes pictures of what is in front of them. They don’t set out to shoot the property “in the best light” but nor do they staage images or make up the pictures. They couldn’t print pictures of a run-down looking property if that wasn’t how it actually looked. Good grief, media conspiracy theories drive me insane.
Wasn’t it two 800 lb round bales? If it was, that was 1600 lbs of hay. If she has small horses who weigh about 800 lbs or so each, they should be getting as a maximum, 2% of their body weight in forage per day. That means 16 pounds per day. If two bales, she left enough to feed 7 horses for 15 days, and that’s without considering whether any grain was fed or any pasture. The bigger the horse, the more they need.
And some of hers were mustang types who have thrived for centuries on less than ideal forage.
Remember that all horses aren’t big and some really can live on air almost. Water, no. They have to have access to water. But those horses showed no signs of dehydration. Someone has been providing water.
Lets just say the 100 gal stock tank was filled once a day. That’s 10 gals per horse per day. Isn’t that the minimum? If the horses drank it faster than expected, is it abuse not to be there instantly for a refill? All I can say is, thank heavens I have stock tank refill valves on mine.
I still want to know how close the neighbors actually are. I can’t get any of the Google stuff to work with my dial-up.
AnotherRound and scheherazadetbmare, please note that I took this line the same way BasqueMom did. “To leave them alone for more than 12 hours is negligent” struck me as a very naive world view. If AnotherRound meant “without water for more than 12 hours” that would be entirely different, and I would emphatically agree. But that isn’t what was written.
See why there are problems and disagreements on BBs? It is so hard to know what other people are thinking, feeling, MEANING to say.
CoolMeadows is taking the flak in regards to posting the street view link.
I need to explain. Days ago I saw the link elsewhere - noted things about the property that had been previously shown and discussed. Saw the differences and noted the date 2010. After reading more posts here ie property description - I felt the street view photos should also be made available to see.
Not knowing how to link the the URL to here I asked CM if she could.
I hope it is realized that there was no harm meant.
Yeah, but if your story has the take on the situation that this one did, you’ll edit your footage to back it up. :lol:
[QUOTE=NeverTime;5155950]
Respectfully, I doubt you know the full story either. You may know her side of the story, but no matter how over-reaching AC might be, they won’t seize animals without some probable cause. There are likely details that have not been shared with the media or made public lest they compromise the investigation.
ETA: The media takes pictures of what is in front of them. They don’t set out to shoot the property “in the best light” but nor do they staage images or make up the pictures. They couldn’t print pictures of a run-down looking property if that wasn’t how it actually looked. Good grief, media conspiracy theories drive me insane.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=fivehorses;5155828]
In real life I hate it when people allude to something, but don’t come out and state it, and I find its no different here on an internet board.
Has PP sworn you to secrecy about her plans when she came back from weg to build a shelter, or get her fencing repaired???
I just cannot stand it when people say things like this. If there is something, anything that would defend PP, I’d love to hear it.
telling us there is more to the story is just jabberwacky.
I just think it is such a darn shame when people want to breed anything they can get their hands on…whether it be an ottb or a colored horse. Make your own darn money, or else buy supreme proven stock.[/QUOTE]
First, you cannot figure out for yourself that there is more to this than what you have gathered off the internet?
Second, yes! Of COURSE there is more to this story! And some people who are making an effort to help this woman would certainly have a different perspective - that would only be logical!
I did not read where she said in any place that this absolved PP of any wrong-doing - she just said there is more to this than most of us know - how would that ruffle your feathers??
And AR, I do not think people are exactly letting PP off the hook simply because they want to wait for more information. I would never make some of the decisions she made, but I still contend that she had a horse sitter - and if that is the case, then all the arguments about her leaving the horses alone for 15 days do not hold water (pardon the pun).
[QUOTE=JoZ;5155959]
AnotherRound and scheherazadetbmare, please note that I took this line the same way BasqueMom did. “To leave them alone for more than 12 hours is negligent” struck me as a very naive world view. If AnotherRound meant “without water for more than 12 hours” that would be entirely different, and I would emphatically agree. But that isn’t what was written.
See why there are problems and disagreements on BBs? It is so hard to know what other people are thinking, feeling, MEANING to say.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely 100% agree with the above. I believe AR meant ‘without water’ but those two overlooked words in an otherwise thoughtful, intelligent post…they are powerful in their absence.
[QUOTE=NeverTime;5155950]
but no matter how over-reaching AC might be, they won’t seize animals without some probable cause. [/QUOTE]
Of course there was probable cause - no water for 12 hours is not acceptable, no matter what else, and thankfully they were taken care of to remedy that. If she did have a farm sitter that was a no show I am sure PP is very thankful her horses were saved.
Just for information, I am posting photos of my little 2-stall barn that I built for $800. I left spaces for ventilation. Those can be easily closed up with 2x2s tapped into the spaces. The top sides is heavy grade landscape fabric to keep the sun and wetness out, but let more air flow. This works quite well, but it is easy to use plywood/waffleboard instead for colder weather. I have not added doors, but again, easy to make out of plywood with 1x4 framing. The cost of those adjustments would be around $25 per stall. For a shed, a good deal less.
The dark chestnut horse is a 15.3h warmblood. The bay is a 2 year old warmblood. They are quite comfortable in their 8x10 stalls, although I wouldn’t want to leave them in for more than a few days.
Again, please point out these people. I haven’t seen anyone who matches. What I do see in your post is some typical passive aggressive undertones of “if you don’t agree with me then you’re a bad horse owner.” I can guarantee you that you’re dead wrong. If you want people to start getting arrested for their potential to commit crimes, then be prepared when it’s your turn.
If you think minimum standards of care for horses should be implimented nationwide, and that those standards should be way higher than the minimum standard generally accepted in this country, then lobby for it. But if someone’s not breaking the current laws (we don’t know if laws were broken or not here_), you can’t say you want them charged because you don’t like how they keep their horses. And to say that people who disagree with you have low standards is just ignorant.
I’m all for regulation of horse owners and breeders. I’d jump right into a system similar to the UK’s. It will never happen here, and if it did we’d still have the problem of ignorant ACOs.
But she didn’t say without water. She said left alone for more than 12 hours. I generally take what people say as what they mean.
To reiterate, as there are clearly objections to the existance of this thread, while we are hopefully obviously concerned about the well-being of one of the members of our community and her animals, if this situation and accompanying news coverage involved a stranger to COTH, it would be open for discussion.
I guess it depends on the “member” as to how this is handled. PP is a member and she continues to be ripped here with no further news. Make up your mind and stop sitting on the fence.
As one of my favorite bosses used to say:
“You can be part of the problem or part of the solution”
[QUOTE=NeverTime;5155950]
Respectfully, I doubt you know the full story either. You may know her side of the story, but no matter how over-reaching AC might be, they won’t seize animals without some probable cause. There are likely details that have not been shared with the media or made public lest they compromise the investigation.
ETA: The media takes pictures of what is in front of them. They don’t set out to shoot the property “in the best light” but nor do they staage images or make up the pictures. They couldn’t print pictures of a run-down looking property if that wasn’t how it actually looked. Good grief, media conspiracy theories drive me insane.[/QUOTE]
Of course I don’t know the whole story. No one here does.
As far as the media goes, I’m not saying they “made up” any pictures, but the better maintained areas of fencing and whatnot didn’t make it into the shots either.
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