Sad situations that are going to be happening too much...

[vineyridge]

Um, PP’s horses have made it through the Maine winters for years. From the video it doesn’t seem that they have suffered.

As to the Maine regulation, the weasel words are very weaselly. Not only do they weasel on appropriate three sided, waterproof roofed shelters for climatic conditions and “as necessary for the health of the animal” but also with "species and breed of animal. This is from the part that is particularly referenced for equines.

So who has the burden of proof that throwing up a tarp shelter is not adequate? The state or the person charged under that regulation? It’s a nightmare either way. Very expensive proposition that would need expert testimony.

If a waterproof roof is required, then leaks are not okay, right? You are committing animal cruelty in Maine if your run in or barn roof springs a leak.

[Coanteen]

[QUOTE=kiss my donk;5160014]
Not defending anyone here, but if the regulations say only:

Quote:
(1) An artificial shelter, with a minimum of 3 sides and a waterproof roof, appropriate to the local climatic conditions and for the species and breed of the animal must be provided as necessary for the health of the animal.

that is not the same as:

Quote:
The fact remains that in THIS case, the state of Maine requires a three sided shelter

The bolded parts of the regulation above leave a lot of wiggle room, such that shelter only needs to be provided when the weather or the health of the animal dictates, not all the time. So if the weather was not extreme, and the animals were healthy, the absence of shelter is not evidence of cruelty.

Having written regulations for a living, the weasel words often get included on purpose to allow room for interpretation.[/QUOTE]

I’d actually interpret the regulation as requiring the minimum, specified as having “3 sides and a waterproof roof”, with possibly more than the minimum required depending on the health of the animal etc.

[Lieslot]

I mentioned it earlier, not sure what ME is like, but before anything is put up, make sure no building nor zoning permits are required.

[CrazyGuineaPigLady]

@Kementari;5160187

I would hate to have some of the people here as friends, because I’m sure the piling on isn’t just limited to people in cyberland. Bullies are bullies wherever you put them.

Well, in a perfect world your friends would pitch in or give you a reality check before you got to a crisis point. Of course, they’d need to know you were heading down that path first, which requires some sharing of real information.

I went back through many of the threads PP started in the last two years and saw no mention of the neighbors, AC visits or her court date. Although she wasn’t obligated to share that publicly and I might have missed something, I haven’t seen one person who seemed to know the direness of the situation until they came across this thread. What kind of a friend does that make her?

And before someone jumps on me for my use of the word dire, that is in relation to the ongoing investigation by AC and not the condition of the horses as seen in the video.

[AppJumpr08]

[QUOTE=Lieslot;5160288]
I mentioned it earlier, not sure what ME is like, but before anything is put up, make sure no building nor zoning permits are required.[/QUOTE]

Will do

Though Maine is typically pretty relaxed… there aren’t any building codes at all in the town I live in… we could literally build a house 2’ away from the road if we wanted. In NH we needed a building permit to put up a tent structure. It’s funny how it varies from place to place, isn’t it?

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Lieslot;5160288]
I mentioned it earlier, not sure what ME is like, but before anything is put up, make sure no building nor zoning permits are required.[/QUOTE]

Always good to check if permits are needed, but if she lives in an unincorporated munincipality, she may not need any permits of any kind for structures or setbacks or such.
We don’t here, other than to follow state or national regulations, of course.

[Lieslot]

Sounds good. She might be a little on the authorities radar at present, would be a shame, if an effort gets hit because such & such requirement ;).

[vineyridge]

Coanteen, I think I would disagree with you. Reg is very badly written. It is definitely ambiguous, since it can be read both ways. If it has previously been interpreted as only requiring shelter from November to spring, then they are not reading it your way.

[Kerrysmom818]

[QUOTE=Equilibrium;5160267]
I know the friends I have would not let me sit by and let my horses or property got to rack and ruin while buying a bunch of this and that. They would give me a kick up the arse. And in a way that however I may not like it, I would know what I’d need to do.

I like my internet community, but it’s nice in a different way. But the people who know me in real life are the ones who will also help me if I need help. And the same goes for me helping them. Sometimes crap happens and every now and again we need a helping hand.
Terri[/QUOTE]

Perhaps her friends didn’t know the extent of the problem?
Maybe she wasn’t keen on visitors and met friends elsewhere.
I know she gave lessons - I can’t imagine it was on her property, although I could be wrong.

Or, maybe she wouldn’t take help when offered. Who’s to say. It’s funny how the mind works sometimes. One man’s junk is another man’s treasure and all that.

Like I said earlier, I just hope it all works out in the end.

[Equibrit]

Dedham building regs; http://www.dedhamme.org/content/4064/Land_UseBuilding_Permit/
If she is in an unincorporated area, would the AC man not be able to visit?

[Lieslot]

You’re good Equibrit, I couldn’t find anthing.
Not sure I understand the document correctly, but even fencing would require a permit.

[Lisa_Cook]

@prairiewind2;5160235

S’OK. I’ve been reading this thread and seeing people run off in all directions with rumors, innuendos and preconceptions. I was fairly afraid that poor ole Frost was going to be labeled as a “wall lover” by those who didn’t know the poem or bother to read it. I could see this misrepresentation being passed on from mother to daughter, father to son, forever more…so I figured I’d set the thing to rights before it got started, thus saving the world from another thread like this one.

Liz

:lol: LOL! I was actually back here to delete my initial response to you, on the basis of unnecessary snarkines on my behalf. But this made me laugh…thanks for taking it in good humor.

Is this where we all hold hands and sing Kum Bah Yah together and everything is right and good in the world again?

[vineyridge]

I think there is information on this thread that it is the State that is doing this, not the town. Perhaps the state has an arrangement with the town to share the ACO. That is, if she is not in the actual town limits. I suppose Google would know.

[LLDM]

With all due respect, Viney - now you’re just being ridiculous.

@vineyridge;5160278

Um, PP’s horses have made it through the Maine winters for years. From the video it doesn’t seem that they have suffered.

You absolutely can’t know that unless you were up there last winter and saw for yourself. You have no idea what those horses looked like then, if these are exactly the same horses that were there for the last ?# of winters. And you are absolutely smart enough not to expect that claim is in any way substantial.

As to the Maine regulation, the weasel words are very weaselly. Not only do they weasel on appropriate three sided, waterproof roofed shelters for climatic conditions and “as necessary for the health of the animal” but also with "species and breed of animal. This is from the part that is particularly referenced for equines.

And you know darn well that a typical Shetland pony will have an easier time than your typical TB will in a harsh winter. And that the law is trying to cover both ends of the spectrum so it isn’t forced to be ridiculous.

So who has the burden of proof that throwing up a tarp shelter is not adequate? The state or the person charged under that regulation? It’s a nightmare either way. Very expensive proposition that would need expert testimony.

No, it isn’t. The broken frame of the tarp structure visible in the pictures is a good indication. The fact that the shelters DID NOT IN FACT HOLD UP is all the proof needed that they were inadequate.

If a waterproof roof is required, then leaks are not okay, right? You are committing animal cruelty in Maine if your run in or barn roof springs a leak.

Now you’re just being ridiculous for effect. I get standing up for someone who you feel is being bullied. But really, you might just be crossing the line into bullying some people yourself. Just because they don’t post here doesn’t mean the Maine AC people or the folks who write the laws are stupid or awful any more than it means PP is. No law is perfectly written - which is why we have a whole legal system to go along with those laws. But you knew that too, didn’t you?

SCFarm

[AppJumpr08]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;5160332]
I think there is information on this thread that it is the State that is doing this, not the town. Perhaps the state has an arrangement with the town to share the ACO. That is, if she is not in the actual town limits. I suppose Google would know. :([/QUOTE]

I sort of addressed this in post 1033.

[CrazyGuineaPigLady]

[QUOTE=stryder;5160230]
Ummmmm … a couple weeks or less does not qualify as several. There standard order is couple (two) few (usually three or four) and several (more than four or five.)[/QUOTE]

Tomato, tomaato but you are correct. I meant to go back and edit it to say a couple (which I believe is factual) and got distracted.

[prairiewind2]

[QUOTE=Lisa Cook;5160327]
Is this where we all hold hands and sing Kum Bah Yah together and everything is right and good in the world again?[/QUOTE]

In Maine, I suspect we’d need a permit to gather and a waterproof building first.

Liz

[CrazyGuineaPigLady]

[QUOTE=scheherazadetbmare;5160216]
Exactly. So I would want to hear from some of the people who have actually been at PP’s place and witnessed her animal husbandry. Someone posted much earlier that she’d been trying for 10 yrs to have AC do something.[/QUOTE]

Oh, the stories I could tell and it gets a lot more interesting when the people who see it on a daily bases finally have a voice.

[fivehorses]

Someone mentioned something about loyalty. I think of myself as a very loyal person, I also consider myself compassionate and can understand both sides of a story/situation.
But, that doesn’t mean that because I find out someone is a rapist or molester or some other heinous thing, who is also my friend, that I feel a need to defend them. Defending someone’s action is different than being supportive in my mind. I can be supportive to the person, but in no way would I defend their actions.

I think what repeatedly disturbs me about many of the posts, is the defense laid out by many.
I have read posters saying things like falling ceilings, leaky roofs and their horses get out as much or even Sunkist acres thinking that PP’s place looked just fine???really, I might not run a rescue, but I serve on the bod, and sorry, I see concerns.

I think that is why I come back and post…because it feels to me that many on this forum think that striving to meet the lowest level of care is simply just fine.

That makes me really really sad.

I certainly am not perfect, nor are my fences, my barn, etc. But, I try and ensure that everyone is dry, warm, has good quality hay and grain, and that they stay in my pasture.

I do not nor does anyone else know all the details of this situation. But, one thing I do know, I cannot condone the conditions I saw in the pics. And I don’t understand why many of you think it is just fine.

Honestly, if I had a call from an ACO, I don’t need friends to nudge me along, I would be mortified. My dad always told me, you are responsible for the animal, you are the human and the one with the brains, they cannot provide for themselves. I take that role seriously, and find it hugely disappointing how many on this forum do not.

loyalty, really, that can excuse so many things that instead we should be holding the person accountable.

[LLDM]

@AppJumpr08;5160269

We aren’t literally only doing one 8’ x 16’ shelter to squeak by. Obviously there are other parts that need to be addressed too. We are all aware of that, and are also aware that a band aid isn’t the way to go right now.

That’s very good to know. Because my main concern, since hearing about all this, has been for the for the best interests of the animals.

I really hope that you can come up with something sustainable if the animals are returned. PP is much luckier than most who find themselves in such circumstances. Not everyone has a group of people willing to make significant investments in their property in order for them to maintain a breeding operation. Or has PP agreed to stop breeding/trying to breed until she is in a better situtation?

Again, I am not trying to be an a$$. Just realistic.

SCFarm