Sad situations that are going to be happening too much...

[prairiewind2]

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;5162147]
Erm well who’d have thought it. I never quoted the whole of the sodding pony club manual!

But do please read on and you’ll see it talks about them needing decent area to roam and decent fencing AND windbreaks!

You probably should have read the whole manual because if you do it then says you even if the horse lives out in addition to the aforementioned that you still need to provide shelter! it even tells you how to choose the optimum site to build your shelter shed and shows little pictures of what it should look like. It even tells you not to remove the cobwebs from it because they act as a useful trap for flies.

Then go on to the portion on fencing - pages on that too and not a single suggestion that a saggy white tape with no electricity whilst you piss off to WEG might be a plan![/QUOTE]

Ummm - perhaps you should have read alllll the way to the end. A stand of trees or a hedge is acceptable too!

I will say again - I am not arguing about pp or her troubles. I know nothing about them, and most certainly can’t tell anything from the articles. I’ve said before - I was a journalist for years. I know governments and I know the media and neither are to be trusted without question. In my experience, the smaller the town or county, the more likely there is to be crooked government officials. Good reason for this. Usually there is not a good newspaper around to keep them honest, but all this is another story for a different discussion group. But suffice it to say that I take no one’s word for anything.

Anyway, I have no opinion on pp because I don’t know enough to have an opinion. If I did have an opinion, I wouldn’t be writing it here because it wouldn’t be important. So don’t be throwing fences and WEG and so forth at me, because I’m not one of those who has commented one way or another about them.

Liz

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;5162163]
Erm in a field shelter?

Do explain how the heck a cobweb spontaneously combusts in a field shelter?

On second thoughts don’t bother because you clearly haven’t got a clue![/QUOTE]

Ouch, my we don’t like to be contradicted in our faith in the PC manual do we? <this would be the manual that also says halters should be left on horses, and to feed ponies corn>

PCM wants to leave cobwebs in barns too, and they surely combust, but maybe the lack of flies is more important to Pony Club.

Field shelters also do burn sometimes from careless and stupid workers who are cleaning them smoking. Usually a horse can escape, but not always the case if a small paddock encloses it. Field shelters are sometimes wired for light and fans too, but maybe the care in your area is more primitive.

I actually do have a clue - several in fact.

[prairiewind2]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;5162168]
If you’re talking the old PC manuals, though, you’re referencing Great Britain, which has a somewhat different climate than Maine.[/QUOTE]

The whole title is The United States Pony Club Manual Of Horsemanship - but that was a mouthful and I type very slowly and badly, so I shortened it.

Liz

[Huntertwo]

@prairiewind2;5162157

The books seem to deal with the subject as an either/or: Here’s how to keep a pastured horse; here’s how to keep a stabled horse.

I originally embarked on this subject because someone, or perhaps many someones, had their panties in a twist because pp didn’t have a waterproof roof for her horses, thus perhaps not only breaking the law - but more important, being horridly cruel to her horses. :eek::eek::eek:

I found this to be ridiculous, and said so. I think the law is ridiculous, and sounds like it was written by animal rightists. Happily for me, I don’t live under such a silly, ignorant laws and don’t have to worry about it. But I did think it was over the top for people to be castigating pp for cruelty when horses are perfectly capable of living outside. Then it developed that there are apparently quite a number of people here who think it is cruel for horses not to have waterproof roofs - and I found it irresistible to argue the point. Just my nature to enjoy arguing the ridiculous. :lol:

As I’ve said, I built my horses a barn. I just don’t choose to be a helicopter parent and make them use it if they don’t want to.

Liz

Then you need to read from the beginning to grasp the real cause of the situation that resulted in the seizure of the horses.

It wasn’t about horses being capable of living outside, but living outside apparently (until we know the true facts) without care, inadequate fencing, water, shelter, etc.

Factor in the breeding, that you can easily find by doing a search and it is plain irresponsible for anyone bringing babies into a situation not fit for an adult horse. And I’m not picking on PP, but for anyone with this type of setup.

If those laws are silly and ignorant as you say, well then…:no:

[Sannois]

Ya know!

I have never looked at the Video or pics but i just did. All I can say if those are starved horses Maine Animal control has a bunch of yahoos working for them.
The neighbor wouldnt know a horse froma hiena .
OK the place is rough but my god arent there far worse cases of animal starvation I mean true starvation.
My barn owner got a 6 year old TB that had good breeding, and my god he looked like a cadavar. only took 3 weeks to fatten him up on her pastures.
All I am saying is none of those horses looked abused or starved. The place needs work brush hogging, better run ins, and better fencing, but to seize them?? ~Sheesh~:no:

[prairiewind2]

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;5162154]
While I do like and respect Pony Club, my pony would miserable or be dead by now if I believed everything I read.[/QUOTE]

Well, it did say “most.” Apparently your pony is one of the exceptions!

Liz

[Janet]

@Fairview Horse Center;5162182

<this would be the manual that also says … to feed ponies corn>

Remember that in British usage “corn” = “grain”, not the stuff that grows on cobs, which is called maize, or Indian Corn.

[BaroquePony]

Well, it did say “most.” Apparently your pony is one of the exceptions!

Liz

In all fairness, my vet did call him a hot house flower.

I have been trying to teach him how to be a real pony :yes:

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

[QUOTE=Janet;5162195]
Remember that in British usage “corn” = “grain”, not the stuff that grows on cobs, which is called maize, or Indian Corn.[/QUOTE]

It still says to leave halters on horses which IMO is very dangerous.

I remember giving a copy to my nephew for a pony they got about 30 years ago. I had to go through it marking things off and correcting.

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;5162182]
Ouch, my we don’t like to be contradicted in our faith in the PC manual do we? <this would be the manual that also says halters should be left on horses, and to feed ponies corn>

PCM wants to leave cobwebs in barns too, and they surely combust, but maybe the lack of flies is more important to Pony Club.

Field shelters also do burn sometimes from careless and stupid workers who are cleaning them smoking. Sometimes from a spark from something else like a horse kicking a block wall. Usually a horse can escape, but not always the case if a small paddock encloses it.[/QUOTE] Well if you think that’s why I jumped on you then let me put you right.

It wasn’t!

It was because you said that cobwebs were a fire risk in a field shelter!

You never mentioned a puke employee with a petrol can and a box of matches. Now I’ll give you that just might be a little dodgey!

You obviously haven’t got a clue what a field shelter is though! Hence you don’t even understand why it aint going to be possible for cobwebs or a spark to cause a fire.

But don’t worry if it makes you feel better to justify shabby practice just carry on imagining flame throwers, negligent arsonists, firey sparks and excessive dust in an open sided ventilated field shelter !

[prairiewind2]

[QUOTE=Huntertwo;5162188]
Then you need to read from the beginning to grasp the real cause of the situation that resulted in the seizure of the horses.

It wasn’t about horses being capable of living outside, but living outside apparently (until we know the true facts) without care, inadequate fencing, water, shelter, etc.

Factor in the breeding, that you can easily find by doing a search and it is plain irresponsible for anyone bringing babies into a situation not fit for an adult horse. And I’m not picking on PP, but for anyone with this type of setup.

If those laws are silly and ignorant as you say, well then…:no:[/QUOTE]

Oh, I’ve read from the beginning. It’s all the "apparently"s that I don’t indulge in. I understand that you are all het up, and you’ve expained why. And I might be all het up too, if her horses looked in bad condition. But they didn’t, so I don’t judge. Don’t have enough facts to judge and am not the type to speculate. Waste of my time and unfair to all sides.

I didn’t say all the laws were ridiculous - just the one about waterproof roofing for horses. Still find that one funny.

Liz

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;5162200]
Well if you think that’s why I jumped on you then let me put you right.

It wasn’t!

It was because you said that cobwebs were a fire risk in a field shelter! [/QUOTE]

Nope, I did not

@Fairview Horse Center;5162159

Unfortunately it leaves out that those cobwebs can be a very UN-useful accelerator of fire. :no:

You obviously haven’t got a clue what a field shelter is though! Hence you don’t even understand why it aint going to be possible for cobwebs or a spark to cause a fire.

But don’t worry if it makes you feel better to justify shabby practice just carry on imagining flame throwers, negligent arsonists, firey sparks and excessive dust in an open sided ventilated field shelter !

Since I never mentioned a field shelter this would be a bit out there don’t you think?

[fivehorses]

[QUOTE=Alagirl;5161974]
I am pretty sure you ride a broom![/QUOTE]

Oh my alagirl, this seems to be totally off topic and a bit nasty.

Maybe you need to go away again for five days?

[prairiewind2]

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;5162198]
In all fairness, my vet did call him a hot house flower.

I have been trying to teach him how to be a real pony :yes:[/QUOTE]

:lol::lol::lol:

[Alagirl]

@fivehorses;5162213

Oh my alagirl, this seems to be totally off topic and a bit nasty.

Maybe you need to go away again for five days?

Pay my way, I have not yet unpacked!

But rest assure, nasty begets nasty and Huntertwo loves to throw the first punch.

I suppose it makes her day, so let her…

[Nojacketrequired]

[QUOTE=mustanglover;5162164]
According to the neighbors (several) thats where they have been since she left is in the round pen, but they keep breaking it down. There was no other place to put them with the fencing the way it is.[/QUOTE]

Could you please point me to where you found that information?

NJR

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;5162212]
Nope, I did not

Since I never mentioned a field shelter this would be a bit out there don’t you think?[/QUOTE]

I specifically said what the manual said about field shelters and cob webs.

You then directly addressed me and told me keeping cobwebs were a fire risk.

Terribly sorry that I hadn’t realised you’d had a little jump in subject matter and had wondered off to considering dust in enclosed poorly ventilated buildings and arsonist staff!!!

I know now you weren’t keeping track of the subject matter and that when you directly addressed me it was about something entirely different!

[fivehorses]

Just to update those of you who are posting and not having a clue to the short history here, let me try and summarize it.

Maine seized pp’s horses because they appeared to be abandoned. Got that??? abandoned.
There was apparently no water and no hay, and the neighbors(god forbid) had not seen anyone in 5 days.

PP has a prior conviction for cruelty. Maine ACO has been monitoring the situation for over a year. I would suggest that due to the fact they have been working with her for over a year, that Maine ACO has done a lot to keep the horses with PP until it became dangerous and life threatening to the horses. Maine aco had to seize the animals otherwise they would be liable for not taking action.

Maine requires shelter for animals, and apparently there was no shelter.

Regardless of the condition of the animal from what you saw in the pics, to the ACO, who left a note to contact them within 12 hours, it appeared the animals were not being provided with water or food. The time frame was probably shorter than the 72 hour notice they give due to the seriousness of going without water for an extended period of time. An animal can live longer without food, but not so with water.

For those who want to argue cruelty about shelters, and whether a horse will use one or not…it is pointless. The state of Maine has a law that shelter is required. Period, end of story.

I am sorry, but all this extraneous bull is just that. What are you arguing about?..nothing. It is really rather black and white. No water, no food, no shelter.
Oh, and lets just mention the poor fencing and countless times horses have been loose and not contained.

You can bet your farm, someone drove by and hit a horse and was injured, they’d be suing the state of Maine if they had not done anything.

I will repeat, If there was shelter, decent fencing, etc, and this was an emergency why PP was away and the neighbors called the ACO because it appeared the horses were without water or anyone caring for them, I would bet PP would be kissing their feet.

How can anyone who owns animals think that it is ok, to not properly fence your horses, and to have ACO monitoring you, yet continue to ignore the law? Do you all need dead horses? Their weight had nothing to do with why they seized the horses. They even said, there were horses in worse shape, but their owners were making attempts to improve. ACO saw, imo no effort on PP’s part.

I will go now and hit my head against the wall.

[Dead_Lame]

@Thomas_1;5162228

Terribly sorry that I hadn’t realised you’d had a little jump in subject matter and had wondered off to considering dust in enclosed poorly ventilated buildings and arsonist staff!!!

Why do you keep insulting everyone whose opinion differs from yours? Now you feel moved to defend the presence of cobwebs?

Seriously, do a bit of research into horse barn fire prevention. What Fairview said is one of the standard recommendations. Keeping the (not poorly ventilated, not chock full of arsonists) facility clean and free of dust and debris, including cobwebs, is a basic recommendation. I don’t understand why you find that so objectionable, beyond that it doesn’t agree with what you posted. Surely there are more effective means of reducing the fly population.

Will your next post call me ignorant, and claim that I’m defending horse abuse?

[MoonoverMississippi]

Here’s a question;

For those who are stating that the horse’s enclosure isn’t that bad, would you, honestly, take your horses there right now and board them there? With no changes to fenceline or shelter availability?

From personal experience:

I had a friend whose husband was killed when he hit a mule that had gotten onto the road; the animal had a history of escaping its fencing (which did look much sturdier than PPs). Those who feel PP’s fencing is okay, and that horses getting out is okay, you cannot imagine the pain my friend suffered losing her husband.

I also as a teen worked at a stable whose horses escaped one night. They were notified the next morning and commenced looking for the one horse still missing, a QH mare built like the proverbial brick $hithouse. She was found in the ditch, still alive, after having been struck by a vehicle on a rural road (oddly, the person driving did not notify anyone and left the scene - we suspected a drunk driver). You seriously cannot imagine the damage done to that mare, who whinnied for help as the searchers approached; it appeared every bone in her hind legs was shattered, as well as an obviously broken back and no-longer-internal injuries…and she left a track were she had attempted to drag herself home, leaving bone fragments behind. I cannot allow myself to contemplate the suffering that mare went through until she was shot.

The above scenerios are what PP apparently felt was an acceptable risk for both her horses and for a random driver in her area.
Aside from the possibility of lack of feed or water or “proper” shelter…how can anyone feel that containing your animals in fencing you know is inadequete to the task is proper, responsible behavior? If you can’t build proper fencing to contain your animal on your own, for whatever reason, you hire/barter someone to do it, and if you don’t have money for that, you certainly don’t buy a new saddle and go on a trip instead. Sorry, but any decent horseperson worth their salt should know that.