Sad situations that are going to be happening too much...

quoting the news article, “According to Perry, Wednesday’s seizure is the result of an investigation that began a year ago when the state received complaints that Ahern was not providing shelter for her horses, even in the winter”.

How can one interpret that sentence? The seizure was based only on the issue of shelter?

Maybe the town could no longer afford the liability of allowing horses to wander on public roads.

Nor, should they.

Read the town paper, a couple of lose horses are the least of their problem! :eek:

I’ve spent 2+ days slogging through 1300+ posts, here. I never connected the original thread headline with PP, someone who I had always considered a knowledgeable horseperson on this forum. When I asked my daughter if she had been following the thread she said, “oh, the big warmblood/pinto breeder in NE??” So a lot of us have been mistaken as to PP’s real identity. I won’t go into my beliefs on horse shelters (always available IMO) or grass/hay - always available and certainly WATER - ALWAYS available) or poor PP’s long history of bad luck, and pending disasters, but an old phrase comes to mind…“when you find yourself in a hole…STOP digging!!” Just last year PP contacted me several times wanting to lease a big, homozygous paint mare I had for sale. Her argument was that my mare would be a great asset to her “rare” breeding program and that although she could NEVER pay any money for the mare, she could guarantee her an excellent life!! (I have never, and will never lease one of my horses to anyone - especially an unknown person 2,500+ miles away in Maine.) I wondered how she had planned to pay to ship the mare 2,500+ miles if she couldn’t afford the $!,000 price tag. After several calls from her, basically pleading to get my mare, I convinced her it was never going to happen. A few months later I saw an announcement by PP that she had just gotten a new “leased” mare. I was in total shock at the article/video/pictures I viewed at the beginning of this thread. I should take them out and show them to my mare…in her cozy motel with her full belly and quenched thirst!! Sh** does happen to people…especially those of us in the horse business, but we all need to keep proper priorities in place. If you own animals, you better make darn sure you can take care of them (food, water, shelter)…especially before you breed more or leave town for 2 weeks!! Through this whole senario, I’ve never once heard of PP calling anyone to check on the welfare of her animals. After notice is made, AC does NOT have to track down an absentee owner…Don’t any of you watch “Animal Cops”???

[QUOTE=CosMonster;5162546]
Here, livestock on the road are a normal fact of life. We’re a fence out state and people take advantage of it. Of course civil damages can still be sought from the owner of the livestock, but it is not illegal and very common. I’ve had to help two different friends do a midnight drive to move a herd of horses in one case and cattle in the other far enough away so that they’d stop breaking down the fences and eating all my friends’ hay.

Also it is not uncommon nor illegal for horses to have no shelter even in pretty small areas. I know of several well-respected breeders (including 2 high quality WB breeders) who have no shelter in many of their pastures and only limited natural shelter for the others. For those that do provide shelters in the field, though, cobweb removal is not regarded as a bad thing but not worried about either. :lol: Also it is very common for horses to be turned out for months with access to either a natural water source or stock tank and not checked on during that time. This is on much larger pastures, however.

Not that that has anything at all to do with PP’s case, but since we seem to have moved onto a general discussion about husbandry practices I thought I would share.

edit: before anyone bites my head off, I’ll say that my horses are both fenced in and sheltered. :lol:[/QUOTE]

I where I lived in Colorado, many areas were “fence out”. In those areas the vast majority of drivers are aware (signs about livestock on roads) and watching. Those areas are shrinking due to higher populations, driving at higher speeds, etc.
However, having seen the results of vehicle/horse “interaction” up close and personal, I make sure my animals and drivers are protected by decent fences. I want neither to know I ruined someone’s life or killed someone, nor know my horse died a horrible death because I was lax in taking care of something so easily corrected. I’m assuming (yeah, know what that makes me) that, being a horse BB, the majority of people on here would think a bit of fencing was a small price to protect their animals (yes, I’ve strung wire fencing and its a bitch but a small price, still), and a responsible thing to do.

Oh no, I agree. As I said, mine are fenced and that’s not just for convenience. Like I said, I was just sharing since the thread had sort of devolved into general husbandry arguments and talk of minimum standards and all that.

This kills me. :lol:

And I just died a little inside when it dawned on me this sentence is about the only thing that has made sense in the last 1.4K posts.

In Ireland, most often in the winter, you hear reports on the radio of loose horses on such and such a road. Now the reasonn I mention winter is because it’s when grazing is a little more scarce. I don’t often hear the reports in the summer time. So, in my opinion only, crappy fencing isn’t good, but it’s been my experience horses only really escape when they have a reason. OK the odd horse likes to be an idiot and if a whole group gets out it’s going to be a free for all, but in general it’s always more than crappy fencing.

In my current situation, my paddocks are to the back of the property. There is a 6ft yard gate which was never closed until I moved here. I don’t take chances either. I’ve only had one horse escape twice. Once when a huge tree branch came down in her field and she took off in a panic - this was 4 years ago when she was a weanling. The property at the time had big huge wrought iron gates that I had taped a sign to that said please keep closed at all times. How and ever laziness meant the other people in the yard couldn’t bother. We had to chase that filly for 2 miles until she stopped dead in the middle of the road in front of a huge lorry. Got freaking lucky there. And she escaped a second time by jumping over/through a 6 and 1/2 foot hedge when her brother was picking on her. She came back into the property but it was my fault for not noticing he was picking on her as bad as she was. But guess what in addition to removing her we also spent lord knows how much money putting hot tape up all along that hedge.

You see when you get traffic reports and loose animlas are involved, it’s almost always horses. Very rarely cattle. And cattle will go through anything, but only when they are hungry
or thirsty. And in my experience, it is very much the same with horses. Why leave a field in which all your needs are taken care of? Yes, I know there is always the exception to the rule, but think about it honestly. In general cattle people are running a business and part of that business is animal husbandry.

Terri

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Lame View Post

Seriously, do a bit of research into horse barn fire prevention. What Fairview said is one of the standard recommendations. Keeping the (not poorly ventilated, not chock full of arsonists) facility clean and free of dust and debris, including cobwebs, is a basic recommendation. I don’t understand why you find that so objectionable, beyond that it doesn’t agree with what you posted. Surely there are more effective means of reducing the fly population.

[QUOTE=cholmberg;5162369]

Because very few field shelters are wired for electricity, they have an open side and thus are extremely unlikely to catch fire unless struck by lightning or someone careless drops a cigarette? He’s talking about FIELD shelters, not barns that are wired up to electricity and -those- are kept cobweb free, but a field shelter is just a three sided structure with a roof not a barn. Not stacked to the gills with hay that can combust, not full of kiln dried shavings (no one I know beds field shelters unless they are wanting the horses to use it for a potty), not wired to electricity. . . .what is going to catch it on fire? That’s the point he’s making, that there is a distinct difference between the two types of shelters. barn =/= field shelter.[/QUOTE]
Thank you. I couldn’t have put it better myself!

In that case it’s not a field shelter and it’s not being properly used.

Note: field shelters are just as Chomberg described and precisely as shown in the pony club manual which someone misrepresented as suggesting you could just chuck them out in an open field. That was the reason that I ever chirped up on this matter. Field shelters are specifically mentioned in the manual despite the other posters suggestion that they weren’t and they’re drawn and shown how to build them and even how to site them.

Further note: they’re not for smoking employees. They’re not for keeping hay in. They don’t have electricity. They’re not stacked to the roof with crap you can’t find space for. They’re for horses to shelter from inclement weather when they choose to so do and to keep dry from freezing rain or blasting icy blizzard winds and under a roof that’s water tight and solid construction.

Additional note: You really probably should have a word with your employees about standards of housekeeping and behaviour. That’s preferable and a heck of a lot easier and less trouble than having AC take your horses for fear of building a shelter because of dust explosion or arson!

[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;5162467]
Actually I have seen quite a few field sheds that have a storage area for hay, and hay mangers inside them. Not everyone feeds round bales to their field kept horses, and the fields are sometimes a good trek from the main barns so it is easier to occasionally stock them with square bales, and just fill the mangers from there.[/QUOTE]

In that case it’s not a field shelter and it’s not being properly used.

Note: field shelters are just as Chomberg described and precisely as shown in the pony club manual which someone misrepresented as suggesting you could just chuck them out in an open field. That was the reason that I ever chirped up on this matter. Field shelters are specifically mentioned in the manual despite the other posters suggestion that they weren’t and they’re drawn and shown how to build them and even how to site them.

Further note: they’re not for smoking employees. They’re not for keeping hay in. They don’t have electricity. They’re not stacked to the roof with crap you can’t find space for. They’re for horses to shelter from inclement weather when they choose to so do and to keep dry from freezing rain or blasting icy blizzard winds and under a roof that’s water tight and solid construction.

Additional note: You really probably should have a word with your employees about standards of housekeeping and behaviour. That’s preferable and a heck of a lot easier and less trouble than having AC take your horses for fear of building a shelter because of dust explosion or arson!

[QUOTE=vineyridge;5162520]
Given the number of animals of all kinds, wild and domesticated, that are killed by cars, maybe drivers are committing animal cruelty?[/QUOTE]

Well being that you’ve a very well recorded track record of running over your own dogs I’m thinking you’re most likely an expert on this subject matter. I’m also thinking having read your opinions over time and in your own words on why it’s perfectly acceptable to allow your animals to stray and get run over that you’re also the most likely one to defend it and put the blame on the car driver.

[QUOTE=Alagirl;5162532]:lol::lol::lol::lol:[/QUOTE] So you think it’s hilarious suggesting that it’s the driver’s responsibility because some owners are grossly negligent and can’t manage to keep their animals under control and safe from harm and safe from causing risk and accident to others.

Well that about sums you up!

[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;5162594]
I’ve spent 2+ days slogging through 1300+ posts, here. I never connected the original thread headline with PP, someone who I had always considered a knowledgeable horseperson on this forum. When I asked my daughter if she had been following the thread she said, “oh, the big warmblood/pinto breeder in NE??” So a lot of us have been mistaken as to PP’s real identity. I won’t go into my beliefs on horse shelters (always available IMO) or grass/hay - always available and certainly WATER - ALWAYS available) or poor PP’s long history of bad luck, and pending disasters, but an old phrase comes to mind…“when you find yourself in a hole…STOP digging!!” Just last year PP contacted me several times wanting to lease a big, homozygous paint mare I had for sale. Her argument was that my mare would be a great asset to her “rare” breeding program and that although she could NEVER pay any money for the mare, she could guarantee her an excellent life!! (I have never, and will never lease one of my horses to anyone - especially an unknown person 2,500+ miles away in Maine.) I wondered how she had planned to pay to ship the mare 2,500+ miles if she couldn’t afford the $!,000 price tag. After several calls from her, basically pleading to get my mare, I convinced her it was never going to happen. A few months later I saw an announcement by PP that she had just gotten a new “leased” mare. I was in total shock at the article/video/pictures I viewed at the beginning of this thread. I should take them out and show them to my mare…in her cozy motel with her full belly and quenched thirst!! Sh** does happen to people…especially those of us in the horse business, but we all need to keep proper priorities in place. If you own animals, you better make darn sure you can take care of them (food, water, shelter)…especially before you breed more or leave town for 2 weeks!! Through this whole senario, I’ve never once heard of PP calling anyone to check on the welfare of her animals. After notice is made, AC does NOT have to track down an absentee owner…Don’t any of you watch “Animal Cops”???[/QUOTE]

Clearly this wasn’t a lucky escape.

Rather you managed the situation very well.

Well done you for being particular about what you do with your horses and ensuring that they don’t go where they won’t be properly provided for.

If only all owners and breeders had the same standards and cared as you cleary did.

[QUOTE=vineyridge;5162079]
I don’t see in the list of people who were present at the seizure anyone representing PP’s interests. All are either employed by or connected with the prosecuting side.[/QUOTE]

doh- they wont be reason being it then its an unbiased opnion

as in not taking sides so therefore when in court they can come up with clear evvidence for a prosecution

and the owner of said land and horses has to come with clear evidence
for a defence

they you have a judge and jury to listen to both sides so you can get aproper clear outcome

as in any legal case for whatever

So I come back a few hundred posts later and see that now we’ve established that not only is it not PPs responsbility to keep her horses from repeatedly getting out, but if a driver hits them, it is the driver’s fault?

And that it is apparently ok to not be able to afford to fix fencing (not going into the shelter issue…fencing should be the #1 priority IMHO to keep both horses and innocent others safe), but it is ok to 1) keep breeding, regardless of whether she gets lucky and gets one bred; 2)keep searching for more “free” horses to add to her herd; and 3) keep buying non-essential horse items (costumes, airline tickets to WEG, etc.) in lieu of essential horse items (fencing, shelter, vet care). OK. Got it.

A lot of things happening in this country right now are becoming that much clearer…

Thank you crosscreekish (sp?) for that post letting the zealots know that you knew PP couldn’t take care of your horse. Breeders have responsibilities and you knew to hold up yours.

If your animal gets loose one time, such as when a tree falls on a fenceline, it’s not your fault. But if like a guy down the road from our barn, you “work on your fence” to connect 2 pastures so you don’t have to lead horses between the 2, and you do a crappy job and 3 horses get out on the road and are killed, it’s your fault. Repeatedly allowing dogs or horses on the road is your fault. I used to blame the people who hit the animals but I learned many years ago that it is the fault of the owners, who think it’s ok to allow animals to roam around. Even my cats don’t run loose, there are fencing options for cats too, you know. Responsibility starts with the owner of the animal.

Most of us truly love and enjoy our horses. This should be no mystery. But some people have a really hard time knowing that sometimes what is best for their horse, ISN’T them.

I’m going to stay clear of PPs situation and speak in generalities b/c I truly don’t feel right passing judgement either way without any of the facts. I do know she came across as a very compassionate person with a clear struggle between life and want. Regardless of the details, I do hope and pray the best for her and her animals. To want less than that would be cruel, especially to a person we all in one way shape or form “knew,” we should ALL be hoping her situation improves (be it with or without horses).

But speaking in general terms, I absolutely do not understand why it is so hard for people to accept that if someone falls on hard times and is struggling to provide proper care for their animals, or is perhaps failing to do so - they think it is okay for the animal to “suffer a little” until they get their feet under them again…or don’t (and we have all seen pictures of what happens when they don’t).

If I came into a situation where things got tight, the FIRST thing I would start selling off are the horses. They are a luxury and they are one of our biggest expenses and liabilities. Do I love them - YES, I love them enough to let them go to a better place if I had to. I would be heart broken to part with my gelding, but would try to find a situation where I could maybe buy him back after the dust settled. I used to be a single cop working a midnight shift, for crappy pay. I had ONE horse that I boarded. I was in court all day, working weekends and when I was off I just wanted to sleep all the time. I had to FORCE myself to go groom him 2x a month and push myself even harder to actually get my tired butt up on him. I didn’t think that was fair to him, and he WAS being properly fed, watered, sheltered by the BO. So I sold him. And I was horseless for 2 1/2 years until the pieces of my life started coming back together in a way that was horse friendly. And 10 years later, I’ve got my own place - and right now 4 horses we own, and am fortunate and thankful everyday for what I’ve got.

I have a boarder with two horses that never sees them. She comes out to our place once a month, is late on board, and the only reason the horses get shots/feet/deworming is because of the BOs. The one horse is in his upper 20s and very lame and I’ve approached her about the what-ifs of euth a few times. Each time she says she wants cremation and can’t afford it, so when he has a catastrophic choke - my husband, the vet, and I all watch the poor horse and do everything we can to get him past it, knowing the next one will be in a day or two. I’ve suggested over and over she sell her other horse who she rides maybe 2x/year, but she “loves” her and can’t bring herself to do it. While she may feel that is sincere, I don’t see that as love. Realizing you are totally neglecting your own animals and either changing yourself or finding them a better place…THAT is love.

CLEARLY, the horses were not PP’s priority. I just do not know how this is debatable.

Heather

[QUOTE=vineyridge;5162520]
Given the number of animals of all kinds, wild and domesticated, that are killed by cars, maybe drivers are committing animal cruelty?[/QUOTE]

My neighbors think so.

They had a lovely smooth coated border collie for years. I drove past him every day going to work. For so long I got sort of attached to him - I’d always look when I went past, to see if he was ok.

So I really freakin’ hated having to pull his mutilated corpse off the road one afternoon.:mad:

You know what? The same good-for-nothing redneck excuses for whitetrash that put that animal in harm’s way have erected a particle board sign in their yard, spray-painted with neon green letters that say “Slow Down Dog Killers.”

Seriously. So now every.single.time I go by that house, I get to relive pulling that nice collie’s still-warm body off the road.

Obviously the do-less good-for-nothing losers can erect a sign, so why couldn’t they have erected a fence in time to protect their dog?:mad:

Oh, right - cause it’s not the fault of irresponsible owners. It’s the fault of the drivers who foolishly believe it’s all right to go the posted speed limit on a paved road and hit the animal when it pops out in front of their car. (And no, I didn’t hit the collie. ALthough I did have the lovely experience of running over and killing another neighbor’s dog, who flew out of a soybean field and ran under my back tire. I got to sit with the dog and the little boy who owned him while the poor thing bled out through his mouth).

As mad as I still am over that collie - it’s still nothing to what would have happened had my mouth-breathing idiot neighbors been letting a horse run loose on the road.

The pictures of the facility that’s the subject of this thread show fabric tape that could not possibly have been electrified (srsly, y’all - do some of you not understand the concept of a closed circuit?) tied to a gate that looked like a truck ran it over. No way it was hot. Very small chance any of the fence was hot given the weeds grounding it. We know from this poster’s own admission her horses got out more than once. Clearly this facility was a hazard.

I said I would not post again but feel a need to explain a few things.

There is a huge difference between impounding loose animals and seizure of ones entire farm including cats and dogs.

Its my opinion that these animals were taken illegally, not that they should not have been taken. If they were loose as suggested, then putting up a notice should not have been done at all. What, they couldnt have been hit in the 12 or 24 hour time period? They should have been impounded immediately for the safety of human and animal. Whether PP was home or at WEG. Impounding would mean she would face a fine for livestock at large, her fencing situation would have had to be rectified before return of said animals. The shelter law doesnt even come into effect here yet. Irreguardless of our opinions on shelter and what is and isnt necessary.

But, these animals were siezed. Huge difference. Siezure means that all the animals from her property must be removed, she may not own any more again. So, the old dog who was boarded will be taken from her. The kitties of which there was no issue shall be removed forever, her horses sold at public auction. There is no happy medium here. She is either charged with cruelty or not. That being very very broad. There is a pending case already, its public information. Its pending because it remains an open file. AC is not visiting PP on a regular basis. If you are reported, there is a file, simple.

There were and are many things that could be improved upon here for sure but…charges of cruelty??? The reason so many cases dont end up in a court of law, and they should is because one has to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that, cruelty, neglect, starvation etc. etc. is done intentionally. With the intent to cause harm or suffering to said animal. You wonder why horses with body scores of 3 or less result only in us finding a new home for the horse, well, cruelty is hard hard hard to prove and it doesnt exist here either. Impound the animals, the horses, yes. Make sure the necessary work is done, yes, have PP pay the costs involved in keeping her horses, yes, that is responsibility. Remove every animal she owns, charge her with cruelty, NO.

Logically, AC could not find water to water the animals. Should I assume that these horses have not had water since she went off the grid a year ago. There is a certain amount here, that we dont even need our eyes to see to figure out. The animals clearly have had food and water, there were none there thin or dehydrated. There wasnt a thing in the world wrong with a cat walking around the farm, why take that? AC overstepped its boundaries but I know from experience, once the ball is rolling, it cant be stopped. Now to justify what they have done, the only things posted are going to be negative. They cant afford this either.

I did this horrible horrible job far longer than I cared to. We made mistakes all the time but shut up since there was a much larger picture than the one at hand.

If there is one of us here who can say, our horses never got loose, even more than once or twice (escape artists expose yourself), one person who can honestly say, every single time they went to there horses trough or bucket, they always had water, nothing ever happened to change that. Never had a leak in your barn roof, darn my new one does. And, how many people here posted there horses got a lot less than adequate care while they were gone inspite of there best efforts. I can honestly tell you guys, there would have been reason to sieze everything I own then. Well, if AC got called in at the right time that is. This was all very convenient in my opinion.It was the answer to there problem but that doesnt make it right.

The issue here was the horses, but…they took everything because they were attempting a much larger charge than warranted. In fact, they havent even charged PP with anything at all. Public information guys.

1 Like

Thomas, the dogs that I hit that you keep bringing up were on my own property in my own driveway when I was going less than 5 mph. One dog chased the other in front of me. Neither was killed.

I’m definitely a heartless, cruel, and negligent person for not fencing my driveway off from the rest of my yard.

Dottie, I am responsible for. She got out of my truck while I was unloading garbage and ran off into our row crop fields. I didn’t take the time to get her back before I went down the road to my barn. I still grieve for her and feel guilt.

Now I’m interested in something. Is it common in Europe for people to have dogproof livestock fences when they use herding or guard dogs for their livestock? Because lovely board or stone fences certainly wouldn’t qualify.