[QUOTE=snkstacres;5162878]
I said I would not post again but feel a need to explain a few things.[/QUOTE] Got to say that I am personally saddened that you find the need to seek to excuse PP and to challenge the actions of the authorities who took the decision that it was in the animals’ best interests to have them removed.
There is a huge difference between impounding loose animals and seizure of ones entire farm including cats and dogs.
I would sincerely hope that if there was suspected abandonment that all animals on the premises would be taken into possession.
Its my opinion that these animals were taken illegally, not that they should not have been taken.
Why? What information do you have over and above what has been published as public information.
If they were loose as suggested, then putting up a notice should not have been done at all. What, they couldnt have been hit in the 12 or 24 hour time period? They should have been impounded immediately for the safety of human and animal. Whether PP was home or at WEG. Impounding would mean she would face a fine for livestock at large, her fencing situation would have had to be rectified before return of said animals. The shelter law doesnt even come into effect here yet. Irreguardless of our opinions on shelter and what is and isnt necessary.
My understanding from the news reports is that they were loose and they were herded up and put in the pen to keep them safe from immediate danger and then the notice was posted to check if there was someone attending and to ask them to immediately phone AC when they saw the notice. The notice I saw looked like it had a 24 hour initial period and then amended to 12 hours. Nothing wrong with that!
Clearly AC didn’t get a call within the time period and so were entitled to believe there was no one in attendance. I believe that someone who has been in contact with PP said she didn’t even know the animals had been taken until considerably later. So clearly there was no one there to either ring AC or to tell her her horses had gone
But, these animals were siezed. Huge difference. Siezure means that all the animals from her property must be removed, she may not own any more again.
No it doesn’t! It only means that IF and WHEN it goes to trial and there’s a conviction and the sentence determines she’s not a suitable owner for the future.
So, the old dog who was boarded will be taken from her. The kitties of which there was no issue shall be removed forever, her horses sold at public auction.
clearly if the legal system determines that she’s had her chance and despite that she’s not a suitable owner now or any time in the future then it would be absurd and illogical to put the animals back there.
There is no happy medium here. She is either charged with cruelty or not. That being very very broad. There is a pending case already, its public information. Its pending because it remains an open file. AC is not visiting PP on a regular basis. If you are reported, there is a file, simple.
How do you know they’re not working with her ? Are you speaking to her? To them?
There were and are many things that could be improved upon here for sure but…charges of cruelty??? The reason so many cases dont end up in a court of law, and they should is because one has to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that, cruelty, neglect, starvation etc. etc. is done intentionally. With the intent to cause harm or suffering to said animal. You wonder why horses with body scores of 3 or less result only in us finding a new home for the horse, well, cruelty is hard hard hard to prove and it doesnt exist here either. Impound the animals, the horses, yes. Make sure the necessary work is done, yes, have PP pay the costs involved in keeping her horses, yes, that is responsibility. Remove every animal she owns, charge her with cruelty, NO.
I don’t know IF charges are to be brought. I don’t know WHAT charges are to be brought.
Do you? Or is this conjecture and hypothesis?
What I do know is that prior to charges being brought the case will be reviewed by prosecutors and they will determine what is appropriate in terms of securing a successful prosecution. If the evidence is there then the case will move forward and it will be what it will be.
Logically, AC could not find water to water the animals. Should I assume that these horses have not had water since she went off the grid a year ago. There is a certain amount here, that we dont even need our eyes to see to figure out. The animals clearly have had food and water, there were none there thin or dehydrated.
Look again. There were 2 thin horses in the video. Not starved to death. But thin. But dying of starvation isn’t the issue is it?
That’s just the tip of the iceberg! The issue here is that she’s left her horses without adequate fencing and without adequate supervision. They’re loose and at risk and seemingly abandoned when she’s having fun at the World Equestrian Games.
There wasnt a thing in the world wrong with a cat walking around the farm, why take that?
Because there’s no one there to look after the animals! No owner. No pet sitter. No one surfaced despite the posting of formal AC notice.
AC overstepped its boundaries but I know from experience, once the ball is rolling, it cant be stopped. Now to justify what they have done, the only things posted are going to be negative. They cant afford this either.
How do you know any of that? Are you saying there’s no democratic fair legal system and no due process in the USA?
If there is one of us here who can say, our horses never got loose, even more than once or twice (escape artists expose yourself), one person who can honestly say, every single time they went to there horses trough or bucket, they always had water, nothing ever happened to change that. Never had a leak in your barn roof, darn my new one does.
What the heck have you said that for. It’s not relevant. It’s not the same. PP doesn’t have fencing. She’s got a saggy single line of white tape with no electricity in.
I’m not assuming this, I saw it on the video and I’ve read for years about her fencing and escaping dilemmas!
She doesn’t have a leaky roof. She doesn’t even have a roof. Or a shelter!
And, how many people here posted there horses got a lot less than adequate care while they were gone inspite of there best efforts. I can honestly tell you guys, there would have been reason to sieze everything I own then. Well, if AC got called in at the right time that is.
And you’re proud of that? Or you seek to justify that two wrongs DO make a right!
I’m sincerely regretting sending you money now! I never had myself down as a sucker!
She’s hoisted by her own petard.
She’s had fence issues a long time and the following are her own words:
[I]April 2 2008:
I stress my 8.5 acres with 5-6 horses, which includes usually 4 adults, the rest are babies-3yo.
I would stress it LESS if I didn't do 24/7 turnout. If I were turning out even just for 1/2 the day I'd be ok. But 24/7 means the sacrifice areas are just horrible at certain times of the year (like coming right up. ) I would eventually love to really do the sacrifice areas right with gravel, but for now they are just dirt paddocks and dirt becomes mud when 4+ feet of snowpack melts.
IMO, the 2 acre per horse rule of thumb seems to be the most accurate.
I use my property to advantage, mare & young foal have the 'nursery' pasture whihc is a lovely slope yet with enough flat spots to rest and/or tear out full speed... I have three grass pastures to rotate, could make them a bit smaller and rotate better, but would loose running room, which I feel is important. Very little wasted space, the back lawn is pretty small, and I can fence off the driveway and they EAT the back lawn. I've never owned a lawnmower.[/I]
[I]
November 21, 2008:
Argh. Winter fencing?
So it's not like I didn't have oh... 6 months to get to this point...
But, one of the horses managed to wreck THREE fence panels the other night. She wasn't hurt, miraculously. I might be able to salvage one of them.
She's very respectful of electric. I could do the area I need in polytape.
Only the ground is frozen now. VERY frozen. Like, I-won't-have-mud-until-April frozen. We've had about a week of temps below 20. Single digits at night.
I have metal t-posts or plastic step ins as options.
Tell me how on earth I can put them in?
Any other ideas? I am thinking of trying to grab some cattle panels and putting them every-other-panel with the pipe panels (they're only 5', so need to be raised--can't raise them without FENCE POSTS to put them on...
Grrrr... it's not like I didn't know winter was coming... I just thought that I'd have 'one more day off' to get things done.
It was a pipe paddock. Completely pipe panels. I lovingly refer to it as my playpen. It WAS the 'safe' place. Stallion proof... foal proof... But not Watchipi proof. She's killed three panels altogether now since she's been here. It doesn't occur to her that she can't clear them, then she sort of just goes THROUGH and crushes them.
So the pipe panels/round pens are where she keeps her mares to keep the stallions from breeding them. And one keeps jumping into the panels…yikes.
[/I]
[I]
November 21 2008:
They nudged it out of place from time to time, but really DIDN'T ever move it. When they went through it, it was for things that they would've gone through ANY fence... and then it was easily repaired.
[/I]
[I]
January 9 2009:
The blue eyed blonde rising 2yo is happily munching hay, in the BACKYARD. I've put her in three times already in four hours. I cannot figure out where she is getting out. No one else is getting out.
She *did* get out once last week at the uncharged fenceline. I restrung, tightly, and no new hoofprints, and fence is untouched. No hoofprints from further down that fenceline (I didn't think to check the whole line in daylight--but in the full moon it's obvious she's not coming from that direction.
[/I]
[I]
July 11, 2009:
I am looking for something non-AC for rotational grazing.
Choices are solar, which I've not had much luck with--though I do HAVE one, and could try a new battery... but I think it's because I have such crappy ground. (23.5" no matter where you go, I'm on top of a granite mountain...)
So these others are either Gallagher or Zareba and can be AC or two different types of batteries.
Horses respect the fence if it's charged--but are evil incarnate if it's not. Once they 'get it' that it's not hot, they just lean/walk/push/barge through it. Two in particular. The rest follow. Peer pressure and all.
I can put in more ground rods--for my "good" stallion paddock I have 5 copper rods... but for a portable/rotational that's really kind of overkill work-wise, ya know?
[/I]
[I]July 22, 2009:
Warning: Do NOT drop a fresh bale OUTSIDE Of said fence and plan to feed it out.
You will NOT have fence left, will not have fresh bale left, and WILL have a muddy, mucky mess where you used to have driveway.[/I]
[I]
August 14 2009:
Last time I came home to horses on the back lawn, the gatepost and gate, which have survived hurricanes, blizzards, Ice Storms and flooding, was snapped off at the base, the gate somewhat crumpled, and the No Climb I had JUST PUT UP after his last foolish attempt at a cross species tryst is ruined. The HORSES were not in either pasture adjoining the gate or the no-climb.
[/I]
There are at least 7 more mentions of horses getting loose (new instances and not repeat ones) and a bunch more posts about her fences being destroyed, broken, ruined, not working, old, frayed, not enough ground rods in, cheap solar charger not working, extension cords to plug in charger not working, etc etc etc.
So she’s had serious fencing issues, broken fencing, non working fencing and admitted escapees on numerous occasions for substantial time. But plenty of shopping in all that time! And not for cheap stuff either. And unpaid time off and a flight to WEG and immediately after 2 new saddles purchased.
I’m not particularly concerned if things weren’t precisely by the book or if AC acted a little quickly. They evidently were there for a reason and even according to PP’s own account she was struggling to keep her horses properly contained and properly fed and properly sheltered from inclement weather.
Yet she’s shopping for saddles, giving it the big talk and getting in loaned mares and breeding more of the blighters! She’s already got a conviction for cruelty and each and everyone of us knows darned well that just doesn’t happen the first and only time that “stuff happens”.
So they might have acted a day too soon this time. I’d personally rather that though than a day too late. They might have taken them before they were freezing cold and had no hay and frozen water and were skating about on ice but again that doesn’t concern me. They might have taken them from behind some shabby bent gate tied to a cable drum and some saggy fence tape rather than scraped them off the front of a truck but again doesn’t worry me. They may even have already gelded the stallion but I’m not thinking that’s a huge detriment to either the horse itself or the world of horsedom! They might even be trying to rehome the whole lot to somewhere that prefers horse care and management over shopping.
I have confidence though that America is not some backwater without fair judicial system and no right to be heard. I’m darned if I can believe in a civilised democracy that this is all just a huge conspiracy to get PP!
