Sad situations that are going to be happening too much...

[SmokenMirrors]

[QUOTE=Alagirl;5164078]
Pray that you are never in her shoes.[/QUOTE]

I doubt many of us will be in her shoes…why do I say this? Because we CARE about our horses, were good stewards, we will set aside our needs and self gratification to do well by our animals and will take the money we could of spent on ourselves and get what we really need to properly care for our animals instead. It is called being accountable. It is called being mature, being an adult, being responsible. I doubt many of us will be in her shoes also because we value our horses, we don’t breed willy nilly, having visions of grandeur nor people smiling and saying its okay, oh you will do better next time, oh that is alright, no. We have REAL friends who slap us with the truth and a healthy dose of reality if we do try to blow smoke and sunshine up their 4th point of contact.

[MHM]

@LLDM;5164072

There are probably people who think that the AC people who made the seizure are good hardworking people who have dedicated their lives to helping animals. Treating them like they are terrible people isn’t so nice either. Why is one so much more moral than the other?

It’s not a question of morals, but kindness. Odds are the AC people in question don’t frequent this board, while PP certainly does. Is it immoral, or just incredibly unkind, to rip her to shreds while she’s down?

[quote=shea’smom;5163925]Maybe it’s time to let this go and then start a new thread when there are new facts.
[/quote]

That was probably true about 65 pages ago.

[Alagirl]

@LLDM;5164088

You’re so right. AC should have left them there without water. Until PP came home. In another 12 or so days.

now where did I say that?!

Um, they would be at PP’s place, the place with no water. Instead of helping the other ones that they didn’t have quite enough to go in and seize yet. Probably because those animals still had water.

You are slowly catching on. Screw the body scales, they are having WATER, forget about the starving…

What is heaven’s name are you talking about? Who’s under the jail? What “misdeeds”?

:rolleyes:

Oh come on, if you and the rest of the commentators would sit in jury, PP would not only be put in jail…she’d never see the light of day again, judged and found guilty in the court of public opinion, off with her head.

Under the jail, fugetaboutit

[SummerRose]

[QUOTE=BasqueMom;5163517]
Wow, Lori with a decade of experience as an ACO before starting her rescue
takes the time to look up the Maine laws and expresses her opinion the seizure may have gone above and beyond the state’s laws without condoning or condemning PP’s horsekeeping.[/QUOTE]

I’m not an ACO but I do work in law enforcement and I do make seizures on a regular basis. I know that there are circumstances under which, even as per Maine regulations, emergency seizures may take place without notice. I also have not yet seen the Maine regulation that states that shelter is required only from Nov. to April, though one or two posters have said that they assumed the Maine regulation was the same as another New England regulation that requires shelter only during winter. Without knowing if the animals were, in fact, seized due to abandonment or due to another violation (or violations), it is impossible to know if the 72 hour rule applies.

@BasqueMom;5163517

Lori also knows that a “seizure” vs impoundment will prevent PP from owning animals again, be it a horse, a dog, a cat, a hamster or even a goldfish.

I think maybe you misunderstood Lori on this point. I’m sure Lori can tell you about cases where the owner has signed over the animals, charges have been dropped, and the owner has started acquiring new animals almost as soon as they have left the hearing. Occasionally, the courts will keep some of the seized animals, but hand some back to the owner.

There is actually a vet in my area who recently lost all of her horses. Incidentally, her biggest issue was lack of shelter, though she recently ran into trouble getting hay, as well. She had about 18 horses that looked to be in reasonably good shape. She had four horses that were in poor condition and one that was suffering badly with melanomas. But despite repeated contacts w/AC, she has had no shelters for the horses and last year, she had two young horses die during bad weather. The horses were seized and she signed them over. All charges were dropped and she has no conditions that would bar her from acquiring more horses; her other pets were never seized and her veterinary practice is still open. (This is another case that was hotly debated on some message boards.) So animal cruelty seizures are not necessarily an automatic end to pet ownership.

[fivehorses]

[QUOTE=Alagirl;5164078]
Pray that you are never in her shoes.[/QUOTE]

what does that mean?

I have made plans if my life became so difficult that I could not care for my horses, then I would not own horses.

There for the grace of God goes I…is meant when people fall onto hardship, not when their animals do.

We can all have major life, economic changes. The difference might be to recognize it, and not try and get more animals, but rehome some of the ones we have.

I think those who think, pray this never happens to you, or for the grace of God, are trying to defend something that more people should be upset about. You don’t get a conviction for animal cruelty, and then have another pending charge, and continue to keep animals and break the law(no shelter) and deserve to get sympathy.

Regardless of people’s opinion on shelter, it is the law in Maine…and for very good reason. the bugs will carry you off in the spring and summer, and the freezing rain and winds will wear you down.

[Alagirl]

@fivehorses;5164101

what does that mean?

exactly what I said. Pray that you never end up in her situation. Many ways to get there. I am not (only) considering animal husbandry, but general legal woes. Have a kid dart out in front of your car…what have you. Things can go from rosy to hell in a moment.

[LLDM]

@butlerfamilyzoo;5164045

AMEN Mao!

I cant believe people here are going to drag sunkissed acres through the mud for stating fact backed by her years of experience in the field… Shame on those who did.

Excuse me? Sunkissed dug her own hole with that post. She even said she knew better than to post, but did anyway.

It seems to have caught quite a few people wrong. They are allowed to have their opinions. That is not dragging anyone through the mud. It’s called rebutting her assertions and questioning her for what seems to be quite a turnaround from her usual position. No one is required to agree with her or be silent about it.

Lori is a big girl. If she puts it out there she gets to deal with the fallout. Just like everyone else.

The whole “shame on you” thing isn’t going to help you much either. Really. What exactly about “shame on you” is not it’s own special (hypocritical) brand of judgmental?

SCFarm

[Alagirl]

@LLDM;5164110

Excuse me? Sunkissed dug her own hole with that post. She even said she knew better than to post, but did anyway.

It seems to have caught quite a few people wrong. They are allowed to have their opinions. That is not dragging anyone through the mud. It’s called rebutting her assertions and questioning her for what seems to be quite a turnaround from her usual position. No one is required to agree with her or be silent about it.

Lori is a big girl. If she puts it out there she gets to deal with the fallout. Just like everyone else.

The whole “shame on you” thing isn’t going to help you much either. Really. What exactly about “shame on you” is not it’s own special (hypocritical) brand of judgmental?

SCFarm

man, remind me to never get into real life contact with you…

[CrazyGuineaPigLady]

[QUOTE=Mao;5163850]
However we feel about Jaime’s facilities, this was not an abandonment or gross neglect case, by any stretch.[/QUOTE]

I believe everyone here is mostly in agreement with that, but think neither the neighbors or AC knew she was coming back the day they seized the horses. Well, there’s also a possibility the neighbors, AC, the Mayor and President Obama took her out for drinks when they found out she was going to the WEG and offered to watch her horses, just to get rid of them. Obviously, the neighbors agreed to take the heat for any backlash.

It baffles me that the “supporters” fixate on the weight of the horses and the fact they knew she was coming back, but fail to recognize they needed some kind of care until then.

I haven’t heard anything about the supposed sitter since PP started sharing some details with some people who sort of talk about it here. I guess he or she turned out to be one of the few this couldn’t be blamed on?

@Mao;5163850

But the horses we saw in video were NOT in any dire condition.

If they were actually loose and in the middle of the road, should everyone have waited for the news crew to show up and film it?

[LLDM]

@MHM;5164090

It’s not a question of morals, but kindness. Odds are the AC people in question don’t frequent this board, while PP certainly does. Is it immoral, or just incredibly unkind, to rip her to shreds while she’s down?

With all due respect, is kindness going to help her? Or is realistic more appropriate in this situation. I would hazard to guess that had people known of her previous charges, they would not have been so supportive of the WEG trip. And had she been home, her horses would most likely still be too. Sometimes there are better things than kindness. Or at least more appropriate.

SCFarm

[CoolMeadows]

Believe me, I live in a small new england town with old boys network, and if you think for one minute they like seeing a single woman owning the largest piece of property in town proper, you don’t know much about old boys. I have been attacked and reported, but you know what…nothing has ever been founded.
So, don’t give the old boys or neighbors anything to convict you on, and end of story. Give them something, and you go down.

fivehorses, just out of curiosity - what were you reported to Animal Control for?

MOD NOTE: Response below from fivehorses

Cool Meadows asks what I was investigated for by the ACO. I believe she is making the assumption it was the ACO, it was not.

My neighbor for 2 years reported me every 2 weeks like clockwork to variouslocal, state and federal agencies, complaints about wetlands violations, manure on the property, horses making too much noise when they ran, etc.

Of all the complaints, none were founded.

Since each complaint must be investigated, I had an agency visit every two weeks. It did finally end when the town said they were taking me to court for dumping manure along the property line(which I did not). When the state came out they saw it was horse poops, not me dumping their stall refuse. At that point, the Dept of Ag had enough, and told my town, one more complaint, and we will take you to court for harrassing a farmer.

My neighbor and the town adm wanted my property for development.

This is also why when I asked about nasty stuff to do to my current neighbor on another thread, and move the manure pile was mentioned, I responded it was not a good tactic.

I believe we are stewards of the land, and also stewards of our horses. It is our responsibility to care for them, and to be a good citizen and neighbor. Farmers have enough issues, I don’t want to represent horse people as being careless or vindictive. We will lose the rights slowly as it is…lack of trails, land use if we act recklessly.

I do not like opening my life up, but when Cool Meadows post made an implication that I had been investigated by the ACO, I wanted to clarify that. It was an assumption on her part, that could lead to misunderstanding on readers.

Please be aware, complaints were filed, none were founded, which is a very different set of circumstances than PP’s. Anyone can file a complaint…that is free. Just like anyone can sue anyone…but that costs.

[MHM]

@LLDM;5164131

With all due respect, is kindness going to help her? Or is realistic more appropriate in this situation. I would hazard to guess that had people known of her previous charges, they would not have been so supportive of the WEG trip. And had she been home, her horses would most likely still be too. Sometimes there are better things than kindness. Or at least more appropriate.

At this point, the result of her actions must be abundantly clear to PP.

So I don’t think kindness is inappropriate. Now, or ever.

[JoZ]

A few questions, and I’d like links to the answers if possible.

1. Do we actually know that the horses were loose this time (the time that precipitated the seizure)? And that the neighbors – or anyone – caught them and put them in the round pen?

2. Putting aside what the neighbor said (not saying it’s not the truth), do we have any other documentation that PP’s horses left the property when they got loose? I kept reading that she found them in the back yard or on the lawn. If the property is fully fenced (and if the perimeter fencing is reliable), horses can get out, cause trouble, even reproduce in an unintended manner, all without endangering people on the road or inconveniencing the neighbors.

Disclaimer – I am ASKING these questions. I am not implying anything. I personally think the most likely entity to be giving misleading info is the media. Having contributed to several horse-related stories, I know how a changed word or a misunderstood expression can cause a very different slant. When I think about what we KNOW in this case, KNOW without any reasonable doubt, it seems I could fit it in a teaspoon.

@MHM;5164140

At this point, the result of her actions must be abundantantly clear to PP.

So I don’t think kindness is inappropriate. Now, or ever.

This pretty much sums up how I feel.

[LLDM]

@MHM;5164140

At this point, the result of her actions must be abundantantly clear to PP.

So I don’t think kindness is inappropriate. Now, or ever.

Again, and I mean this nicely, how can you possibly know if she understands the consequences of her actions yet?

SCFarm

[MHM]

@LLDM;5164149

Again, and I mean this nicely, how can you possibly know if she understands the consequences of her actions yet?

I can’t possibly know that she does, any more than you can possibly know that she doesn’t.

Until more FACTS come to light, rather than more theories, gossip or supposition, I will choose to stick with kindness, thanks.

[elysian_fields_farm1]

@appyreiners;5163980

This situation should scare all horse owners and owners of any animal. The original article cited lack of feed and water and referenced shelter issues as grounds for the seizure. When it became apparent that the horses were not in poor condition, somehow the complaint/seizure has morphed into an issue of loose horses (or at least on this thread).

Due process, right to a timely hearing, rights against unreasonable seizure of property all seem to be out the window.

Horses are property. We have a duty to care for those in our control, but a horse is property.

Newspapers can be and are often wrong in reporting. Neighbors can and do have their own agendas. Judgments in court are overturned because law enforcement has lied on the stand. Some who are guilty go free.

Do we know what is the truth in this situation? No, we don’t. The accused cannot speak, but everyone else can and is. Innocent until proven guilty, what happened to that concept?

So many people are willing to trash a person’s life based on limited information from sources that may be biased and/or are sensationalizing the story. And the neighbors in this case are biased and have their own agendas.

Standards of horse care vary. Some variations are regional, some variations are discipline related, and some just vary by person. Very rarely are two people going to completely agree on anything related to a horse.

The fact that so many leap to judgment saddens me. The fact that people who question the process are getting jumped on scares me. The state apparently feels free to take property and not set a hearing…and so many appear to be okay with that. If that does not scare you, it should.

Ask yourself: what if animal control showed up with my worst enemy at my worst moment in time?

For my horses, I would hope that someone like snkstacres is involved.

Amen- Well said appyreiners. I don’t know PP from Adam’s off ox, but I sure have empathy for her-- especially since this train wreck thread apparently will just keep rolling right over her. Where is a Mod when you need one?

Let’s all quit trying the case on the internet, and wait for the courts.

While waiting, those who actually know PP and want to offer help to repair fences, etc.- kudos to you! That’s a decent action to take.

Those who don’t know her, but want to help in some way, and can afford to do so-- have at it, with kindness and tact.

The rest of you need to remember that the main principal of law in the USA, which is different from many countries is— INNOCENT UNTIL PROVED GUILTY in a court of law– not in the media, not the court of public opinion, not in the minds of neighbors, and certainly NOT in the “almighty” COTH universe.:yes:

[Eye_in_the_Sky]

[QUOTE=JanM;5163583]
MG-how did that fool mean you were supposed to leash a chicken? With a harness or a collar? I can just see your dad ‘walking’ the flock just like the New York City dog walkers do.[/QUOTE]

Funny story - my cousin went to study abroad in Ecuador and brought back a picture for his mom - she has it framed in her kitchen. It’s of a rooster chained to a park bench by his leg - I’m not making this up. I thought my proper Southern Aunt was going to wet her pants she was laughing so hard! I’ll see if I can get a copy.

[Eye_in_the_Sky]

As for the farm-sitter, let’s send Antoine to go get 'em:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKsVSBhSwJg&feature=channel

[citydog]

[QUOTE=Eye in the Sky;5164180]
Funny story - my cousin went to study abroad in Ecuador and brought back a picture for his mom - she has it framed in her kitchen. It’s of a rooster chained to a park bench by his leg - I’m not making this up. I thought my proper Southern Aunt was going to wet her pants she was laughing so hard! I’ll see if I can get a copy. :)[/QUOTE]

It’s often a cockfighting thing. Hardly a laugh riot.

[Eye_in_the_Sky]

A cockfight in a park??? I’m sorry, but first, we did not know it was for a cockfight so sorry for laughing at something I have never seen, and second, REALLY!!! A cockfight in a park???:eek: