So saddle fit is driving me nuts again.
The spot I seem to have the most issue with is shown by the green circle in this picture
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/0KPb5h0SfxhfjNokWEKlttMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
How /should/ the fit be through that area? Maybe my ideas of saddle fit for that part are skewed and that is leading toward my frustration?
Thank you 
There should be enough clearance to let the shoulder blade move freely, which means in an ideal situation that the scapular cartilage should just slide under the bar tip when the horse is reaching forward and the limb is unweighted.
This assumes that the musculature is not atrophied and damaged. There should not be a “wither pocket”. Too many saddles are too tight in this area, and damage the muscles there. People then fit a saddle tight in the “pocket”, and the horse never improves.
Too tight, and the saddle will tend to get shoved back or you’ll hurt his shoulder.
A little bit looser at the rear edge of the shoulder is a better way to go, as a result, but no SO loose that it unbalances the whole saddle.
Essentially you know the overall tree shape is good if the saddle stays in place with a loose girth.
I once borrowed a single rigged saddle from a clinician and rode with a girth so loose (unintentionally) that the fellow remarked midway through the class that I might not want daylight between the horse and girth. Even then, the saddle was plenty stable, and I really hadn’t noticed.
I have had Cody since he was a skinny 2-1/2ish year old mustang recently gathered from the wild (gathered mid-November 2008, adopted first weekend in Dec 2008). Even before I started him under saddle lightly the summer he was 3 he’s always had a bit of a dip behind his shoulder. It’s gotten better (he’ll be 8 this year) but is still there somewhat.
I have a 3/4" 5-Star pad and I have pieces of 1/4" white felt that I’ve been using as shims. I rode last night with my pad and two shims on either side kind of in that dip area. By the time I am done riding, if I try and run my hand under the front of the saddle it feels like it is snugged up tight against the back of his shoulder.
So after I was done riding, I took him in the round pen, took the pad off, and with no cinch I had him walk around to see where the saddle wanted to settle. Even with variations in shims, it seemed like it would still end up snugged up against the back of his shoulder. I also found, that depending on where I placed the shims, it would feel tight towards the top of the bars in the front on either side of his withers?
The saddle doesn’t seem to bridge or anything, and the curve (rock?) from front to back /seems/ to match his back (I will try and check again) it’s just through the shoulders that doesn’t seem quite right.
I feel like I am missing an “ah-ha” moment that will tell me how better to use the shims to be more effective 
[QUOTE=froglander;7441139]
I have a 3/4" 5-Star pad and I have pieces of 1/4" white felt that I’ve been using as shims. I rode last night with my pad and two shims on either side kind of in that dip area. By the time I am done riding, if I try and run my hand under the front of the saddle it feels like it is snugged up tight against the back of his shoulder.
So after I was done riding, I took him in the round pen, took the pad off, and with no cinch I had him walk around to see where the saddle wanted to settle. Even with variations in shims, it seemed like it would still end up snugged up against the back of his shoulder. I also found, that depending on where I placed the shims, it would feel tight towards the top of the bars in the front on either side of his withers?
I feel like I am missing an “ah-ha” moment that will tell me how better to use the shims to be more effective :([/QUOTE]
Could you take another set of pictures that shows the saddle on his back without any padding? Or did you do that and I missed it?
The bolded area that I highlighted above makes me think that the bar angle is too wide for him? Just putting shims under the whole front of the bar wouldn’t relieve the pressure near the withers, but if you cut/made/used an angled shim and put the skinny part of it up by his withers and then the wider part of it down toward his shoulder, that might help with the angle. Does that make sense? If the bar angle is too wide, it is going to pinch at the top by the withers and then flare out below that. Adding more padding overall isn’t going to change the angle, so you’d need to do some creative shimming with angled padding parts. I hope that makes sense.
I went through a similar situation with a saddle I had on trial this summer. Sometimes you could have a gullet that is too wide. Sometimes you can have an angle that is too wide, and/or you can have both. Sounds like you are starting to narrow it down, though.
Thanks Pocket Pony, I will see if I can get more creative with my shims (and try and get some better pictures).
I had the saddle on (did this with and without the pad) and had my hand up under it over his shoulder so I could feel it moving (once I convinced him it was okay to walk forward like this) and it was interesting to feel the almost…rolling movement of the shoulder.
I wish I were as handy as aktill and could just build my own tree and saddle!
I think Pocket Pony has it right, and you have a situation going on like the left side of this sketch (cross section through withers): http://www.easphotography.com/Horses/General/Internet%20Discussions/ChronicleForums/Shims.jpg
You need a shim like the orange one, not like the blue one.
Making saddles isn’t rocket science, it’s just expensive and time consuming 
There are lots of resources for folks to teach themselves, like I’m doing.
Fair warning, you don’t do it because you save money or time lol You just do it for the satisfaction or because you get exactly what you want. The latter was my motivation, the former just a nice perk.
FYI, the Nikkels did the tree I’m building on, I didn’t make that part. I’ve tried to build a tree before, but the handmade ones from them are much nicer. They’re the cost of a cheap saddle though ($900 for the walnut one, around ~$600 for a “normal” tree). A Steele or Bowden tree is more in the ~250-300 range.
There’s nothing preventing you from ordering a tree direct, then sending to a saddlemaker. That’s about a $3-4k option (on the cheaper/simpler end), but a good one.
[QUOTE=aktill;7441612]
I think Pocket Pony has it right, and you have a situation going on like the left side of this sketch (cross section through withers): http://www.easphotography.com/Horses/General/Internet%20Discussions/ChronicleForums/Shims.jpg
You need a shim like the orange one, not like the blue one.
Making saddles isn’t rocket science, it’s just expensive and time consuming There are lots of resources for folks to teach themselves, like I’m doing.[/QUOTE]
Great picture to demonstrate what I was trying to say.
I can barely braid my own hair, so despite wanting to learn all I can, the practicality of actually doing it myself is pretty slim. :winkgrin::eek:
I don’t know how easy it is to cut and shape felt into a more triangle shape, but you might check with Skito . . . I vaguely remember getting shims from them in the past for english saddles. And again you might try the Corrector pad. Go about 3/4 down this page and you’ll see a picture of the pad with shims. http://www.thecorrector.net/index.html
Saddle fit on western saddles is definitely harder to assess, since the tree is buried deeper under bits of saddle.
Thanks for that sketch aktill! I’m going to take a closer look at width and angles when I go out to the barn tonight.
That is interesting to know about your tree, I’d been looking at their site yet again yesterday and wondering if it’d be crazy to consider ordering a tree from them.
I don’t really see myself roping, but I’d like to be able to ride balanced, trail ride, obstacle challenges, maybe play with cows some…so who knows, lol. I like the general /style/ of my saddle, I just want it to fit better!
Can’t afford a new saddle just yet as I’m kind of between jobs at the moment, but you’ve given me some things to think about regarding shims, etc. to at least help it work better for the time being.
Question about shims. Would they be more effective being a firmer or softer material? Or should I go and find those play mats like you suggested? How far back would you have the shim go? (Probably to answer that, I need better pictures)
Thank you all again for your help and suggestions
Lol, my wife couldn’t understand how I could do leather work etc but braiding manes is almost completely beyond me.
If you think of one of the tape lines running down the back of your horse front to back like this:
http://www.easphotography.com/Tindur/Nikkel_Tracing_Apr2012/ObliqueLR.jpg
…as the orange line here:
http://www.easphotography.com/Horses/General/Internet%20Discussions/ChronicleForums/Shim.jpg
…and the purple line is your saddle, you need to make the red shim. Use a firm foam materal like the play mats here:
http://reviews.homedepot.com/1999/202019836/best-step-primary-color-2-ft-square-interlocking-foam-mats-4-pack-reviews/reviews.htm
MAKE SURE THE SHIMS ARE FIRMLY BONDED TO YOUR PAD…or the saddle will just scoot the shims along with it.
[QUOTE=aktill;7441673]
MAKE SURE THE SHIMS ARE FIRMLY BONDED TO YOUR PAD…or the saddle will just scoot the shims along with it.[/QUOTE]
Hooray for duct tape! Or maybe I’ll upgrade and use velcro this time…
So, if this works out, would it be crazy to then follow your instructions on removing the skirts and trying to modify the tree to the equivalent of the shims? (Like some of the pictures you’ve shown where you added and shaped layers of leather glued to the tree?)
Because you’re essentially dropping the point where the bar tips would meet the fork, I suspect the skirt wouldn’t go back on correctly. When I was correcting mine, I was mainly correcting a tree that bridged or was too narrow, so all the material I added was in the middle of the bar or up under the inside edge of the skirt.
Get the shims to work first though, then you’ll see what you need to do. Simply stitching the shims to your pads would be a simple, permanent fix (if annoying…hand stitching to thick pads is a pain to get even).
Just to share another pic of Cody, here is a (I think) flattering shot of him someone took a few weeks back. (He has two lines attached to his halter because I’d been ground driving him over and through a bunch of obstacles we had set up)
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/pcmiVQto9Vag61J1-2TnoJR4QKmiLkwdQyhCbAw0iA8?feat=directlink
Cody is so handsome - and a big guy! How tall is he? I love mustangs!
Thanks Pocket Pony
He’s about 15h, so not all that big, I think the way I cropped that pic is a bit of an illusion, lol.
He’ll be 8 this summer, funny to think I got him a little over 5 years ago as a recently gathered 2-1/2 year old
Pictures from tonight.
https://picasaweb.google.com/111009817625947235626/CodySaddleFit22014?authuser=0&feat=directlink
I tried the shims shown in one pic, but it still didn’t seem right. He has also been reluctant to really be as forward as usual the last couple days.
I ended the night riding bareback around the round pen with a halter and that he finally felt relaxed and as forward as he could when trotting bareback.
I think I am more confused now as to how to make this saddle work
[QUOTE=froglander;7442619]
Pictures from tonight.
https://picasaweb.google.com/111009817625947235626/CodySaddleFit22014?authuser=0&feat=directlink
I tried the shims shown in one pic, but it still didn’t seem right. He has also been reluctant to really be as forward as usual the last couple days.
I ended the night riding bareback around the round pen with a halter and that he finally felt relaxed and as forward as he could when trotting bareback.
I think I am more confused now as to how to make this saddle work :([/QUOTE]
I looked at these, I am not the best fitter but I think this saddle may have a few issues on your guy. I wouldn’t use shims honestly. Not at the shoulder. What I am worried about is if you can put a string from the front to the back and pull it through after sitting on it, it almost looks like there is not enough spine clearance and the saddle seat where your weight is is sitting on the spine, becuase the panels angle is too wide. But that may just my perception. Also, is there enough wither clearance? When you sit and post is the front sitting on the withers? Let’s see what other people have to say but that’s my two cents.
No, the saddle doesn’t touch his withers. I know when the saddle was made, I expressed concern about my horse’s spine being the highest point of his back and the guy said he’d do some sort of “modification under the seat frame” to make sure it wouldn’t be hitting Cody’s spine and I don’t /think/ that has been an issue.
The biggest thing I seem to run into is that I can start the saddle out back where it feels like it just tucks in behind his shoulder, and when I first climb on and start walking I can shove my hand under the front of the saddle and feel his shoulder moving. By the time I trot, the saddle feels pressed up against the back of his shoulder.
Okay, I’m in trouble, from the www.rodnikkel.com website I visited some links of saddle makers that use their trees. I have since contacted one of them and while I can’t get a saddle yet I find myself day dreaming about them. This one likes to build the saddles and rigging in such a way to use a single cinch in a 3/4 or 5/8 position. I’m doomed.
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