Saddle fitter's posts about chair seat/alignment and using no thigh blocks

[Lunabear1988]

I’m going to go reread as well. She breaks it up in a lot of posts and isn’t always very clear with what she is saying. If she is saying “Hey these professional and talented riders shouldn’t be criticized for a moment of time and very particular Grand Prix moments where they don’t perfectly align because it’s not the same as an amateur with a weak core in a bad fitting saddle.” Then I don’t disagree (But is anybody criticizing these riders and their position?)

But if she’s advocating it’s better to ride like that all the time than I’m not so sure. And a kind of got that from some of her post but again she breaks it up into multiple posts maybe I miss something. And she talks about a lot of different things regarding saddles as scribbler pointed out. And there might be an agenda (selling a certain type of saddle.)

Not sure but I do think it’s kind of an interesting discussion.

[endlessclimb]

And EVENLY placed. They weigh a lot, and if you aren’t straight or even, your horse will surely feel that.

[Lunabear1988]

Truth. The other day in my lesson we were working on some half pass and you should have seen the crazy stuff I started to do towards the end of the lesson as I was getting tired. Basically at the end of the lesson I could only use one leg at a time and had my inside leg just hanging off the horse which certainly didn’t help our half pass lol. My trainer was like “um what are you doing with your inside leg?!”

[netg]

@Scribbler

I follow this person on FB. A couple of months ago I too posted a “reality check” thread here on something or other they were saying. COTH comments confirmed my sense that this person generally starts with an accepted truth, then veers off into plausible but incorrect claims, many of which may be biased towards selling Stubbens to lower level adult dressage ammies.

Chair seat, floppy legs, forward tilt, toes pointing out, sitting lengthened trot, are all the bane of life of lower level adult ammies without a lot of core strength, and these clients are often seeking a saddle to feel more secure on their Warmbloods that are just a tetch too much horse for them really. At my barn Schleese has totally ocaptured this market with a similar blend of accepted truth + plausible untruth + overpromising. Different claims but same strategy.

Same thoughts I’ve had on these posts. I wish more brands would allow no or pencil block options. I have a hard time finding the right fit, and it varies by horse, mostly because of my insistence my blocks can’t actually block me except when preventing unplanned ejections. (My thoroughbred had a talent for turning himself into a catapult. My trainer taught me to stay on and ride him out of the bucking, but blocks definitely helped at times.)

These posts just use that propaganda method of enough correct information to sell what includes faulty info. It may be true belief, bias from training by Stubben, or intentionally trying to pull the wool over people’s eyes. In this case I suspect bias the fitter doesn’t even realize is there, meant well, with a true belief the saddles mentioned will be the best answer.

[Lunabear1988]

I really like the option of Velcro blocks honestly.

I agree that there might be an unconscious bias.

[skydy]

@Lunabear1988

I know Catherine Haddad also post on this saddlefitters stuff a lot in agreement. And I know she has some YouTube videos kind of advocating something similar. I saw that video years ago and just kind of tucked it away as something interesting but not anything that I heard from anyone else.

Haddad-Staller is sponsored by Stuuben .

Sorry for the derail, but whenever her name is mentioned I can’t help but think of this; https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/train-trainers?page=2 and the reaction to it here; Catherine Haddad's latest editorial

[Lunabear1988]

I wondered if there was a connection there.

And I read that article years ago, I forgot about that one. Yikes. Some valid points but lots of ego and assumptions in there.

[Warmblood1]

The first image of Klimke shows him in the extended trot. He is opening his hips and bringing his knees slightly forward to accommodate for the large movement.

On the opposite end, you’ll see the leg brought back in piaffe when asking for collection:

But in general, Klimke rode with shoulder, hip, ankle alignment and was a proponent of it in his teachings:

Old school riding leaned more towards the feet jammed forward in the stirrup. This did lend to stability in the saddle but has its disadvantages. It makes it harder for the rider to follow the rein, creating harsher contact. It’s also difficult to manipulate the rider’s body for lateral work or adjustability within the gaits. But it can be more secure over fences when the style was not to do an automatic release anyways.

The various forms of two and three point are a more modern adaptation within disciplines, especially with the introduction of the automatic release. Riders going over fences and property wanted security, but it does not bode well in dressage, for example.

I do agree that large thigh blocks are not the answer to correct posture in the saddle, however. They can help but often hinder.

[Lunabear1988]

Thank you so much for this. Very helpful.

I was thinking about how trying to judge rider position from photos is especially difficult to relate it from professional at GP and a amateur at say training level. There’s just so many differences between the two one being the type of movements they are performing.

[eightpondfarm]

If you watch a video it would be better, wait until they’re at equilibrium and take a screenshot. HARD because something is always happening, but maybe if you slo-mo and watch closely you might catch them a few times at equilibrium. A rider performing a test is gonna be like watching a dingy on the sea. Maybe there are training sessions online to catch them at even keel for a longer duration??

[Lunabear1988]

Video is always more helpful for sure. Ingrid Klimke is one of my favorite riders to watch, although I will admit I’m usually not looking to see if she is perfect alignment But she does have a beautiful position in my opinion and looks harmonious on many horses that I have ever seen!

[SuzieQNutter]

I haven’t read the saddle fitters words either.

When we talk about a chair seat it usually has to do with the feet on the shoulders of the horse, not mms from an imaginary line.

Thigh blocks. I have never ridden with them. Luckily the ones at the riding school were held on by velcro, so I took them off.

I can not ride in Australian Stock Saddles. My tree trunk legs do not fit under whatever you want to call them, blocks or whatever,

[BigMama1]

Agree. The pictures slightly out of perfect alignment don’t represent a “chair seat” at all.

[Warmblood1]

My pleasure.

A picture is just a moment of time and never an accurate representation of the ride. Video is much better. Riders are going to be slightly different at GP versus training level, but the theory is the same as far as body alignment. The adaptations in seat that usually makes pictures vary is when cues are given. For example, a side pass is going to have one leg further behind the girth and the hands slightly different. The seat bones and shoulder will often tip slightly in the direction of the movement. One thing to develop an eye for is how position slightly changes when riders are asking for different movements. A seamless rider is going to give little indication of aids but they are often still visible is you pay attention to the legs, seat bones, hips, shoulders, spine/head and hands.

Seat also varies slightly per rider. Certain riders have different styles, different backgrounds in training. And you’ll also even notice a slight difference in a competition seat versus a training seat. For example, with a younger horse, the rider is going to be more generous with the back and may even ride in a more forward position. A rider riding 8 horses a day may also ride slightly different than someone riding a horse in competition.

[Warmblood1]

If you enjoy Ingrid Klimke, you’d also probably enjoy Kathrin Meyer Zu Strohen. She’s another tall, elegant German rider.

[Lunabear1988]

I will look her up, thank you.

[SillyHorse]

@Lunabear1988

And I do actually think that’s why it’s not a huge deal if my ten year old is in a chairseat right now at the sitting trot because the instructor is focusing more on her seat following and not gripping anywhere.

Unless the horse or pony your ten year-old rides is really slab-sided, her little legs cannot yet hang down over the barrel in the ideal position. Her hips can’t open enough, so her femur has to go forward rather than down.

My last horse was wide-backed with a large barrel (you know, the kind that’s advertised as “takes up your leg”) and I was always struggling to fight a chair seat. Until I retired him and bought a horse with way less barrel, I never knew I could ride with a better leg position.

[Jealoushe]

I’ve followed this person and chatted with her for some time and honestly she is very educated and I have learned a tonne from her. She even gave me advice which helped me immensely with my sitting trot. It’s something I look at now all the time when assessing myself and others and she is bang on IMO.

The bareback stuff alone convinces me.

[Jealoushe]

She does post videos all the time. I think it’s not super fair to post this here about the account because we are just looking at a few posts while she usually has very lengthy posts with multiple examples of photos and videos. She posts daily. I highly recommend everyone give her a follow.

[Jealoushe]

She doesn’t push just Stuubens she actually works on a lot of different saddles and posts all different brands. She also doesn’t just post about positions and knee blocks lol