Saddle fitter's posts about chair seat/alignment and using no thigh blocks

[Scribbler]

@eightpondfarm

horsemanship takes a backseat equally when performing for competition AND when $/notariety comes into play. Both competitors and performers (Spanish Riding School et al) can be guilty of too much apparatus and too little finesse. When human egos and pocketbooks stand to gain, it’s sometimes the animal that loses.
My coach is also a judge and one of her biggest complaints is the number of lower level horses that are pulled into a frame without the supporting physicality. Who go round on top of their necks but with the underside of their necks becoming over-developed. I don’t know if it’s ‘to win’ or just plain mimicry and trying to be like others who are more advanced…probably both. But again, it’s the horse who suffers.

One thing that can get conflated is what “competition dressage” means. The pitfalls, errors, and indeed strengths are very different between low level local ammies, high level ambitious pros, and top pros on the international circuit. Different horses different timeline different competition goals and very different riders.

I certainly get to see my share of clueless ammies and small time trainers hauling horses into a “frame,” choking off natural gaits, riding on the forehand, and blowing hind suspensories before they ever show First Level. I am not going to conflate this with other critiques I may have of horses going at FEI competitions. Different worlds.

Just like whatever you might think about Grand Prix jumping, it’s not fair to look at a timid adult ammie rerider thumping over cross poles and say “that is what is wrong with jumping today.”

[BigMama1]

@Scribbler

One thing that can get conflated is what “competition dressage” means.

It means nothing. It’s become a catch-all phrase to describe anyone who doesn’t claim to be an “classical artist” and who doesn’t worship at the shrine of the “masters.”

Where I live it’s also a phrase some self-styled experts who have never ever successfully trained a horse or a student up the levels use to sneer at those who have, because of course they are merely “competition dressage” riders and are therefore doing it wrong.

[Warmblood1]

What I find ironic is when “classical dressage riders” critique “modern” riding as if they aren’t using modern equipment and principals themselves. Thigh blocks or none, today’s dressage saddles are modern and are a product of modern technology. If a “classical dressage rider” were truly using classical equipment, they would find themselves in a truly classical saddle:

15th century European saddle made of wood

15th century saddle lined in hide and birch bark

And if said rider were a female, they would find themselves in a side saddle as it was considered wholly inappropriate for a lady to straddle a “beast:”

1840-1850 Side saddle

Wool flocking, saddle fittings, custom trees, trees of various materials, safety stirrups, etc., are all modern components of tack. I’m quite happy we aren’t still lining saddles with wood bark. I’m also quite happy with the bits that have evolved, much under the direction of the USDF and USEF due to competition, as during the height of classical dressage it would not have been uncommon to use a curb such as this:

Curb bit c. 1520 believed to be for King Henry the VIII Royal Amouries

In fact, competition and the industry produced due to competition has brought about many great advancements in regards to tack, horse care, veterinary medicine and horsemanship in general. Quite thankful for “modern” dressage.

[SuzieQNutter]

I was classically trained as well. I hope I don’t have the elitist view above. I see everyone on their journey to Grand Prix and we all start somewhere and many will not get there, probably me included.

Having had a horse who changed so much off property and a husband who downright refuses to compete, I admire anyone who goes out to compete. They are not just talk, they walk the walk.

If hubby says ANYTHING, about a rider we see out or competing online I will comment that they are out trying which is more than he does, so he cannot comment until he has done it himself.

[MapleBreeze]

So many flavors of dressage…
So do you want the strawberry cheesecake, irish cream, coffee, or pistschio soft serve ice cream today???

Its like arguing over whether strawberry cheese cake or pistachio tastes better.

At some pont you gotta eat the ice cream and ride the horse before it melts.

[eightpondfarm]

@sascha

@eightpondfarm

(Spanish Riding School et al) can be guilty of too much apparatus and too little finesse

Please, some examples. You need to back that kind of statement up.

Here is my entire opinion on this. You missed quoting a couple of sentences which i think negates any need for backup.

“horsemanship takes a backseat equally when performing for competition AND when $/notariety comes into play. Both competitors and performers (Spanish Riding School et al) can be guilty of too much apparatus and too little finesse. When human egos and pocketbooks stand to gain, it’s sometimes the animal that loses.”

[eightpondfarm]

And i also think that when man uses an animal to achieve his goals, it’s the animal that often does some suffering. I feel that there are many sports that are hard on bodies…unfortunately, animals, unlike humans who play sports, don’t have much of a choice as-to whether they will participate or not. …and yeah, i know this has nothing to do with chair seats or knee rolls.

[BrownDerby]

FWIW, The SRS has probably the most transparent training, open to the public, in the world.

[SuzieQNutter]

The SRS does have the most transparent training, open to the Public, in the World and is greatly admired and what we inspire to be like. We wish we could ride and treat horses like that.

[Mondo]

eightpond - have you been to the SRS? Have you ever seen them train/perform? I assure you they are not “guilty of too much apparatus and too little finesse.” That is a huge misstatement. Rather than coming back with the suggestion that sascha took a phrase out of context (they didn’t), maybe back up what you are suggesting with that phrase. It’s false to include the SRS in your generalization.

[sascha]

@eightpondfarm

Here is my entire opinion on this. You missed quoting a couple of sentences which i think negates any need for backup.

No, it doesn’t. Please provide examples of the devastation the Spanish Riding School wreaks on its horses.

You cannot lump the SRS in with the rabble without providing some sort of evidence that shows it deserves to be derided.

[Bluey]

@sascha

No, it doesn’t. Please provide examples of the devastation the Spanish Riding School wreaks on its horses.

You cannot lump the SRS in with the rabble without providing some sort of evidence that shows it deserves to be derided.

All of us can at times tend to have formed firm opinions that make sense to us with what we think we know, but maybe really fall into the old “don’t know what we don’t know”.

[sascha]

Well sure, @Bluey, but if we aren’t questioned on our false beliefs we will continue to believe them.

If no-one says, “hey, that’s no true, in fact, it’s very untrue” and the influences closest to that person also don’t know what they don’t know, the myth will endure.

Do I personally expect some sort of answer from @eightpondfarm? No. But, like others who have stood up and said, um, please don’t conflate the SRS with any other performance group, I hope I may have planted a tiny seed that, given the right opportunities, may one day germinate.

It’s important to speak up about blatant untruths in all aspects of our lives

[Bluey]

@sascha

Well sure, @Bluey, but if we aren’t questioned on our false beliefs we will continue to believe them.

If no-one says, “hey, that’s no true, in fact, it’s very untrue” and the influences closest to that person also don’t know what they don’t know, the myth will endure.

Do I personally expect some sort of answer from @eightpondfarm? No. But, like others who have stood up and said, um, please don’t conflate the SRS with any other performance group, I hope I may have planted a tiny seed that, given the right opportunities, may one day germinate.

It’s important to speak up about blatant untruths in all aspects of our lives

Definitely, speak up if we know better is what keeps truth out there, no question.

My point really was, sorry it was not clear, “educate, not alienate”.

All of us have holes in what we think we know, holes that let us stand firm without realizing we really maybe should be listening, not speaking:

[Bluey]

Seriously, animal rights fanatics will insist all we do with and to animals is evil.
Their stated sentiment, “it would not hurt their feelings if humans disappeared from the earth, so no animal would be abused”.

Other than that, any anything alive does in the earth is using resources to survive, that INCLUDES other alive.
That is just the way our world works, from the lowest to the highest organism, all have an impact on all resources including other organisms.

HOW we go about those necessary uses is a whole different way to approach that reality.

When it comes to what the Spanish Riding School in Vienna does, from their breeding and managing and training horses is by any measure as acceptable as not questionable as what most any other may do, from those using horses for pasture ornaments to those using them for all kinds of tasks.

Again, is HOW anyone does what they do that matters and there, well, opinions are each one their own, according to whatever they choose to believe.

Let’s just remember, domestic horses were bred and managed and trained for centuries to thrive under our many ways we manage and use them, to do our bidding.

The SRS is all about the horse as we domesticated, bred and manage them for a certain use and that is above anyone’s glib dismissal/objections as “just to show off”, as reflected in some clueless comments, what a silly idea.

[eightpondfarm]

i suppose i am fall on the side of AR animal rights side of the fence more than AR animal usage.

I assume that many horses used by men are overused, overweighted, overbitted, put into work too young and given less freedom than optimal. And when money or prestige is involved for the human part of horse and rider, the tendency is that it happens more.

I give you that it’s only a feeling and only a generalization. And only an opinion. But i own it. In my life and on my farm i keep my animals according to my philosophy. I follow my internal moral approach to animals…

[Bluey]

@eightpondfarm

i suppose i am fall on the side of AR animal rights side of the fence more than AR animal usage.

I assume that many horses used by men are overused, overweighted, overbitted, put into work too young and given less freedom than optimal. And when money or prestige is involved for the human part of horse and rider, the tendency is that it happens more.

I give you that it’s only a feeling and only a generalization. And only an opinion. But i own it. In my life and on my farm i keep my animals according to my philosophy. I follow my internal moral approach to animals…

… and no one disputes every one of us having basic rights to our opinions.

What we need to be a little more careful is when judging what others choose to do.
Especially when dismissing the animal rights extremist stance of “any use is wrong”.

We are all subject to first, examining why and what we are doing.
We should not be giving ourselves a pass on what we do because is what we do and then judging others lacking because it is not our choices.
Individual rights end at the feet of other’s rights, our opinions notwithstanding.

Clear abuse? We have laws and regulations against it and is never acceptable.
Where that line crosses from use to abuse is not always so easy to define.
No one is above criticism, but also not everyone should be assumed guilty merely because they make different uses of our animals than we do.

[sascha]

@eightpondfarm

I assume that many horses used by men are overused, overweighted, overbitted, put into work too young and given less freedom than optimal. And when money or prestige is involved for the human part of horse and rider, the tendency is that it happens more.

While this may be true in many, many cases, it is wrong to paint the Spanish Riding School indiscriminately with the same brush.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

No one in the forum could doubt that you treat your horses and all your other animals ethically.
However, there are a lot of animal rights activists that would say that you are abusive or exploiting animals just for owning them.

Didn’t mean to derail the thread…

Just responding.

[eightpondfarm]

@Bluey

Where that line crosses from use to abuse is not always so easy to define.
No one is above criticism, but also not everyone should be assumed guilty merely because they make different uses of our animals than we do.

and i never said everyone. I said some. and i think the further down the road you go toward $/fame, the more the incidences. $$ brings out the worst in some involved in animal-related sports. So does pursuit of fame.

My heart always goes to the animals. and again, this has nothing to do with chair seat or leg bumpers.