Saddle fitter's posts about chair seat/alignment and using no thigh blocks

[MsM]

To me, thigh blocks can be like having an "Oh S***t strap.

Ideally the rider hooks a finger and gains confidence in riding out unexpected moments, or is able to steady their hand and learn the feel. Used incorrectly, the rider constantly pulls on the strap to keep themselves in the saddle and the seat doesn’t develop properly.

Similarly the blocks can aid in learning position and avoiding unintentional dismounts. Or the rider can learn to brace and again not develop the seat properly.

And now that I am older and weaker with a bigger moving horse, I admit to needing some help at times.

[sascha]

@Impractical_Horsewoman

“perfect practice makes perfect performance”

It makes sense in music when you get to a certain point in certain scenarios. Technique is perfect. Understanding of the concepts is perfect. Speed is an issue. So you start playing the piece (or phrase) perfectly at much reduced speed and gradually increase speed until the whole thing is equally perfect at the prescribed speed.

In riding, I think it’s a bit different.

I think of it as not throwing anything away or not allowing bad habits to creep in. For instance, even a baby horse can learn really good w-t and t-w transitions and they can become a habit that carries through IF the rider never gets lazy and gives a pass to/allows a subpar transition. That doesn’t mean the baby does it in the same self-carriage as a trained horse, but that they maintain balance, aren’t allowed to hollow the back for even a moment, and so on.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I definitely understand to some extent the argument. But I also think that ideal can be a bit punishing and result in extreme performance anxiety that can even translate to riding for practice that can ultimately be self-defeating. It’s definitely a delicate balance. On one hand, you always want to leave the horse a bit more trained and better off by the time you get off. On the other hand, the opposite extreme are people who are so terrified of “ruining” their horse with a bad ride, they hardly ride (which ultimately results in more anxiety and poorer muscle memory). I don’t want to minimize the costs of poor training and poor riding, of course, but, again, there’s also an argument sometimes for just going out and giving things a go.

[sascha]

I agree. There’s a reason I chose not to become a professional musician.

There’s also a reason* my horse is 16 and still doesn’t have confirmed changes and I’m going back to the beginning to fix a giant hole in her training. <- I don’t mind this though, I chose to train her and enjoy her and do all the stuff I never got to do when training other people’s horses specifically for dressage. No regrets but I understood when I made my decision that climbing the levels would not go the same way it had with previous horses.

*in addition to various illnesses and injuries that put a serious crimp in our training plan

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Ha, and there’s a reason I’m a writer, where “performance” is less of an issue! I can do a messy first draft (or delete much of my practice), and then hone it over time, so the reader isn’t the wiser. There isn’t the same muscle memory as with a performance-based sport or art that has to be “unlearned” if done wrong.

I do also agree with you that taking it slow is sometimes the best antidote to that anxiety, while still doing a bit to chip away every day at what you’re learning. I’ve definitely learned over the years to always end a session when I (or the horse) does something well, rather than to keep drilling, increasing the risks of a fatigue-related mistake, and then having to do it all again (and worse, because tired).

[anon68314200]

I think the pursuit of absolute answers is probably going to result in a limited view/system of information. There is no “one size fits all.” And bodies vary widely. You can see upper level people (with fantastic athleticism, proprioception, etc) breaking every rule and theory in the book. But they have made their way up the ladder that way, and it is unlikely they will change it. That does NOT mean that beginners should emulate or follow their way of doing things.

Saddle fit and rider seat mechanics exist in dynamic with the physical and mental character of the horse. At the end of the day, the more the rider knows about themselves and their horse, the more they are willing to study their own riding (VIDEO people, every ride/as much as possible. You need mountains of information to really come to conclusions) and the more they are willing TO CHANGE, the better they can make us of saddle fit,rider mechanics, etc

But no one can give anyone an absolute answer, or solution, etc. Pondering and exploring are essential. But the sequence goes

Think
Act
Check
Change

[SuzieQNutter]

@Impractical_Horsewoman

This. It’s why the “perfect practice makes perfect performance” mantra always sort of confused me. How do you get to perfect (in practice or in competition) without lots of imperfect moments along the way?

The saying is Practice makes permanent. Practice incorrectly and you will end up incorrect.

[BigMama1]

I agree that “perfect practice” doesn’t mean being perfect, it means fixing mistakes until the movement is done correctly. So if you let your horse rest a hind leg 5 out of every 10 halts and don’t bother to fix it, that’s not “perfect practice.” That’s sloppy riding which teaches the horse that resting a leg in the hall is just fine.

[sascha]

@SuzieQNutter

The saying is Practice makes permanent.

The saying is perfect practice makes perfect performance.

Repetition is what makes permanent.

[Curly_Feather]

I learnt it as “Perfect practice makes perfect”. As a counter-argument to “practice makes perfect”, where if you just keep repeating something in a sub-par manner, you cannot get close to perfect, but if you focus on getting it as close to perfect as possible every time (obviously in line with whatever level you’re at), the end result is easier.

[netg]

I want to thank this thread for my morning motivation.

Working on eliminating bracing in my mare’s body (she is the powerful type who braces and charges forward, rather than oberbend or lose impulsion), so decided to ride without stirrups to ensure I could not brace against the saddle in any way. Besides my current inability to walk, it went well. (I’ve been on vacation + rained out enough to have lost fitness… may mare doesn’t seem to have had the same challenge )

I then rode her full brother who is schooling FEI including piaffe and passage and got stuck in passage until I realized how much I had to drive with my seat to get him moving vs my mare, but without stirrups had no problems adjusting seat for his needs, even in a saddle an inch smaller than mine.

[Warmblood1]

@before_color

However I think that this discussion tiptoes around the fact that there is a difference between a competition rider and those who view dressage as an art form and training for the horse. These two riders are not the same but we try to compare them as one.

I’m late to the discussion but I think this is a bunch of malarkey and is a huge insult to many competitive riders. I’ve known more “classical dressage riders” with elitist, dismissive attitudes who are lesser riders than they’d like to believe and who are dismissive to new ideas and theories that may actually benefit their horse and their riding. Equestrian sports are progressive and new concepts, understandings, technology, etc., is introduced everyday. Dressage history evolves and thankfully, we aren’t still stuck on Baucher’s theory of hyperflexion because of it. I admire many competitive riders because they have the guts to put themselves out there to be judged and critiqued and use that critique to advance. Many “classical dressage experts” wouldn’t dare to do so. They use their “hatred for competition” as a way to escape criticism. No one is a bad horseperson simply because they are utilizing competition. They are a bad horseperson because they are a bad horseperson.

It is ignorant to say a competitive rider isn’t studying the works of old dressage masters and theorists simply because they show. I know MANY competitive riders, if fact most serious competitive riders, that are well schooled in dressage history. And this is coming from a person who has studied dressage extensively for 25 plus years as a student and who isn’t crazy about showing strictly due to personal preference. Dressage translates to training - it has nothing to do with “modern” or “classical,” merely training. There are many schools of training and all of these are old.

The equestrian world lacks humility and I can not think of a more dangerous thing to lack around horses.

[Warmblood1]

@before_color

If there is no difference between the classical and modern dressage, then why are there no Spanish Riding School of Vienna riders and Lipizzaner horses competing at major events anymore?

Did you know that Andreas Hausberger (current Chief Rider of the SRS), has trained Jessica von Bredow Werndl for over 15 years, and also trains under 25 Euro Medal winners, Semmieke Rothenberger, and Raphael Netz?

“Look at someone like Jessie von Bredow Werndl, who I’ve been helping for 15 years. She knows very well what lightness and collection is. Let me tell you, the basic is the seat, and she sits beautifully.” Andreas Hausberger

He also trains Olympic rider Marlies Van Baalen and GP competitor Matthias Bouten.

Alois Podhajsky, one of, if not the most influential Director of the SRS, was also an Olympic competitor:

All the current Chief Riders, Rudolf Rostek, Herbert Seiberl, Christian Bachinger, Andreas, teach clinics around the world in addition to their full time SRS positions and they all teach competitive riders as well as judges.

Many trainees for the school are accepted based on their competitive riding history - competition helps prove their efficiency at the level. The trainees have incredibly demanding schedules which allows for absolutely no time to show. They are grooms and running the stables. The assistant riders are equally as busy and working on their careers at the school.

The Iberian is the foundation for the Lippizan, Kladruber, many European WBs. The Iberian is heavily represented in dressage horses who are competing. Lusitanos dominated in the 2020 Tokyo Olympics, despite the breeds rarity. There are approximately 11,000 Lipizzaners world wide with less than 1,000 in the United States. You do the math. The Lipizzaner is a rare breed but there most certainly are some out there competing.

[Nous]

This is a Spanish Riding School saddle where the blocks are quite obvious.

Looking at some of the videos of the SRS you can see that a number of their riders are in saddles with some form of block, although it can be quite difficult to discern with riders in white breeches using white saddles on white horses.

[Bogey2]

Great information in your posts! Thanks for sharing. I ride once a month with a woman who worked with Mikolka for years and one of the things she always points out is how bad the saddles were in the old days…for the horses too!

[outerbanks77]

@Bogey2

Great information in your posts! Thanks for sharing. I ride once a month with a woman who worked with Mikolka for years and one of the things she always points out is how bad the saddles were in the old days…for the horses too!

It’s funny to me, the tendency to cling to “tradition” in riding equipment. Imagine skiers rejecting all the improvements in equipment and saying everyone should be able to do it all on old wooden skis.

[BigMama1]

And this idea that everything “modern” in dressage is terrible and everything with the old masters was achieved with reins of silk and sugar cubes

[Scribbler]

@before_color

It seems that my writing style that is devoid of emoticons is interpreted as harsh. We are on a discussion forum and it’s natural to have back and forth with opposing opinions when engaged in discourse.

Back to my original point: find the equipment that works for you and your horse. If the blocks help you develop your core balance, then that is fantastic. If riding bareback helps you do this, that is equally fantastic. You can also develop these off of the horse through Pilates, yoga, etc. It’s not fair to lean on the horse’s mouth for balance, especially as one progresses up the levels and ends up hanging on the curb rein.

I mention my “friend” because she epitomizes a competition dressage rider. All three of her horses have developed a lateral walk since she has started riding them. And her BNT has her doing flying changes on a horse who consistently scores around 50% at second level so now the solution is to go to third level and throw a double bridle on the horse.

If there is no difference between the classical and modern dressage, then why are there no Spanish Riding School of Vienna riders and Lipizzaner horses competing at major events anymore?

I don’t think your friend epitomizes a competition dressage rider. I do think your friend epitomizes a certain kind of lower level amateur rider with a coach who doesn’t have a very large tool kit. Often these folks, rider and trainer, are very single track goals focused ribbon or level chasers, but ironically they tend to stall out above first level because there are so many holes in the basics and short cuts.

Balancing on the reins and a lateral walk are typical issues of lower level ammies. There are different issues with upper level and pro riders.

Leaning on the reins for balance is totally different from riding with strong contact. I see high end pros riding with way more contact than I think humane or necessary, but they are not doing this to keep their balance. On the other hand, if you do balance on the reins you stop being able to use them to influence the horse which is very much a block to improving your riding. Using reins for balance is obviously wrong up down and sideways. On the other hand there can be a grey area at the sitting lengthened or extended trot where the horse is reaching into clear contact, you need to keep riding to keep the trot balanced, and you can start to wonder if the reins are in fact stabilizing you. But if you drop the reins and drop the horse the trot will fall apart.

As far as the Spanish Riding School, they specialize in drill team riding and in airs above the ground. Dressage competition stops at pirouette, passage and piaffe, and doesn’t go on to capriole, levade and courbette (except if things go very sideways). I’m not sure what the SRS has to gain by trying to compete. They date from long before dressage was a competition sport, and showcase 18th and 19th century military cavalry based moves. Have they ever competed? Not that I’ve heard of.

Edited to add: really informative post from @Warmblood1 upthread that shows the SRD has been involved in training and competing all along! Thank you! I learned something!

[eightpondfarm]

horsemanship takes a backseat equally when performing for competition AND when $/notariety comes into play. Both competitors and performers (Spanish Riding School et al) can be guilty of too much apparatus and too little finesse. When human egos and pocketbooks stand to gain, it’s sometimes the animal that loses.
My coach is also a judge and one of her biggest complaints is the number of lower level horses that are pulled into a frame without the supporting physicality. Who go round on top of their necks but with the underside of their necks becoming over-developed. I don’t know if it’s ‘to win’ or just plain mimicry and trying to be like others who are more advanced…probably both. But again, it’s the horse who suffers.

[sascha]

@eightpondfarm

(Spanish Riding School et al) can be guilty of too much apparatus and too little finesse

Please, some examples. You need to back that kind of statement up.