Saddle fitter's posts about chair seat/alignment and using no thigh blocks

[rothmpp]

I should thank you. You’ve just illustrated the point many of us have been trying to make regarding the blocks vs no blocks camps. Adamant no blocks riders insist there is something lacking in blocks riders skills. Blocks riders typically say “to each their own”. Without actually saying the words, you’ve pretty much just insulted anyone who does not ride in your flat saddle with pencil rolls.

I don’t care if your saddle works for you. I’m not going to think less or more of you for riding in it. But you obviously think less of anyone who uses blocks, including your “friend”. In one sentence you say it doesn’t make you better than your friend, but then spend an entire paragraph describing how she can’t ride and it’s crutch for her. Frankly, she likely “makes fun of you” because I’ll bet your superior attitude comes off in waves around her.

I don’t agree with your notion that riders should dumb a horse’s gait down to what they can handle. It’s actually the opposite of what we aim to do in dressage - make the horse’s gaits the purest and best that they can do while also adhering to the training, both classical and competitive dressage. Which are not mutually exclusive.

And to say that competition riders do not care about the art of dressage is incredibly insulting. There are plenty of non-competition riders who wouldn’t know the art of dressage if it ran over them. Plenty of competition riders do care about the art of dressage, but of course, not all of them. Stop lumping groups of people together to suit your agenda.

[SuzieQNutter]

I seem to like a different saddle to most on here, I love a deep seat.

We found an old style county dressage saddle at the last car boot sale. The girl did not know what she had. It had sat unused in their lounge room for over 30 years. Hubby picked it up and I told him we did not need another saddle. I then asked her what size it was, she didn’t know. I asked if her Mum rode a tb or a warmblood. She didn’t know. Hubby said he would give her $60.00 for it which is laughable.

She said yes… and that was mounted with stirrups and girth.

I took it home and put it on my boy. I sank down into it and felt I could sit trot for hours. Alas he was too short backed for it and the flaps interfered with his shoulders. So I ended up riding him in my Mum’s old saddle which is probably an all purpose, which he picked.

Another saddle Mum had was a Syd Hill. It had a flat panel in the middle that was comfortable however it stopped me opening up and sitting down into the saddle like the deep seated County.

[pluvinel]

With the disclaimer that I currently ride in either a Roosli Pilatus or a Spirig, the best saddle I’ve sat in is a friend’s Loxley by Bliss.

This saddle has minimal knee rolls, but the part that is fabulous and unbeatable is that the seat is “nicely padded”…enough for my bony behind to actually relax and be able to SIT.

I cannot say the same about the Roosli or the Spirig, who both remind me of old-school Passiers. They were both bought as custom saddles to fit the horse…the rider comes second (of course).

Can’s say enough good things about the rep that fitted the Loxley saddle to my friend’s rather “overly rotund” horse.
Two Time Tack and Prudence Heaney, Saddle Fitter in Hagerstown, MD

Unfortunately I have enough collection of saddles (plural) that I don’t need another…but the Loxley is a great saddle.

[atr]

And my Loxley has nicely padded and very well placed thigh rolls that I dont even notice… comfy seat, too

[atr]

As an aside I think most of the external tbigh block saddles are monoflaps, so what used to be hidden under the flap is now on parade for all to see. It not necessarily much more of a crutch than a knee roll. I’m enjoying the closer contact feel of the monoflap. (And I’m enjoying not getting raw spots on the insides of my knees from where the swell of the knee roll hit the stitching on my breeches, but that has probably been helped by wearing silicon seat breeches… the horrors…)

As an “older middle aged lady on a big moving horse,” I appreciate all the crutches I can get.

[BigMama1]

This is exactly the attitude I was referring to. Maybe you do don’t intend it that way but it sure reads you feel superior to your friend because of the way you were taught and the choices you make when riding / working with your horse.

Personally, I don’t buy into this “classical vs competition” dressage nonsense. There is good dressage and bad dressage, period. I’ve seen lots of appalling riding from people who have been “classically” trained with so-called masters and lots of wonderful riding from “competition” dressage riders. There are good and bad on both sides.

With that out of the way, it sounds like your friend has different goals than you and is doing what works for them to achieve those goals. Perhaps they are still learning to sit the trot correctly and balancing on their hands a bit as they learn, or perhaps that’s just your interpretation, who knows. But if having a comfortable saddle makes it easier for to sit and enjoy riding while they develop that core strength and balance, why does it bother you?

[Wilbury_Pie]

Over the years I’ve taken several clinics with judges in the off season. One in particular was all about very long stirrups. I’ve always struggled with the length he wanted. More recently I took some clinics with a judge who said that thinking had changed on stirrup length and that shorter was more acceptable. Makes perfect sense to me, there’s no cookie cutter solution that fits us all. Just my musings…

I have a County dressage (forget the model name) with front blocks. It’s about 20 years old. When I first got it, I just loved the seat position it gave me, compared to my County jumping saddle. I wouldn’t give it up easily. Luckily, my saddle fitter has been able to figure out how to fit it on three different horses (using Mattes pad with shims and saddle pads if varying thickness).

I’m not a serious dressage rider, but as I age I appreciate more the benefits of dressage for my horses and myself.

[eightpondfarm]

@BigMama1

I’m with you on the shorter stirrups. For me they provide more stability

When i’m aboard one of my green horses i ride with stirrups about two holes higher. It’s harder to get a leg around their barrel, but when i need to i’ll drop a stirrup to put my leg down and/or back. Then right back in to get ready for whatever that horse is gonna do. Which is often dipping his/her head waaay down. That i need to brace for…

[Piaffe11]

Yikes! I am glad you aren’t a boarder at my barn. The way you are coming across in this thread makes me think you are the type of person that makes dressage not fun. You judge everyone and makes those opinions known to the world.

It’s pretty insulting to those of us here that compete that you think the epitome of competition dressage equals a lateral walk and putting our horses into double bridles because we can’t control them.

I am a competitive rider. My horse doesn’t have a lateral walk. Last year we put my mare into a double bridle because I had a herniated disc in my back (didn’t know it at the time) and I was struggling with back strength and pain. She is 18hh and knows exactly how big and strong she is. She also requires a lot of abdominal/back strength to ride. For the time, the double helped my mare and I be able to keep going until I needed surgery. She’s now back in a snaffle. I don’t think anyone can and should judge me for that - and if they do I honestly don’t care.

I can’t speak to why you don’t see people from the Spanish Riding School out at competitions - I know there have been some. I know there are some Lipizzaners competing, but there’s not exactly a plethora of Lipizzaners around. There are what - a handful or less of breeders in NA or you need to import from EU. PREs and Lusi’s are much more common so I think people that are looking for that type of horse goes with what is easier (and has a better selection).

[Equibrit]

@before_color

If there is no difference between the classical and modern dressage, then why are there no Spanish Riding School of Vienna riders and Lipizzaner horses competing at major events anymore?

Thay can’t afford it ?

[hut-ho78]

I had a memory triggered by another topic where three of us would ride each other’s horses in dressage lessons sometimes in the evening. I had a flat saddle with minimal knee roll. I think the other two saddles had blocks. I can’t remember much about the saddle the other tall student used. The saddle the shorter rider used had blocks. That saddle could be excruciating for me as it didn’t fit me and the blocks and seat locked me into a painful position. The horse was fantastic and worth every bit of pain. I wouldn’t dream of putting a saddle flocked for my horse on someone else’s horse because horse’s comfort is paramount to me. My guess is people who hate blocks have had that kind of experience, when the saddle does not fit the rider.

I believe any saddle that fits the horse and rider whether or not it has blocks, foam or wool flocking, etc. is a great saddle and finding that saddle for some horses, especially if they have issues, can be like searching for the holy grail.

I usually feel most comfortable and secure in a flatter saddle with a spring tree and wool flocking. I had one saddle with a deeper seat that when correctly fitted was incredibly comfortable for me and the horse but when the horse’s back would change would be painful for both as there was no forgiveness room.

Everyone is so different and has so many old injuries and muscles developed for other sports, etc. that one type can’t fit all.

I think fit and balance (and gullet width) and where the stirrup bars are located seem to be the have to haves. The rest are individual needs and preferences.

[rothmpp]

@before_color

It seems that my writing style that is devoid of emoticons is interpreted as harsh. We are on a discussion forum and it’s natural to have back and forth with opposing opinions when engaged in discourse.

(clip)

If there is no difference between the classical and modern dressage, then why are there no Spanish Riding School of Vienna riders and Lipizzaner horses competing at major events anymore?

First, I don’t know you in real life. It may be that your writing style is lacking in a certain amount of empathy, but rather than coming up with a different way of describing what you are trying to say, you continue to double down on the insults of anything other than “classical” dressage. I, for one, don’t regularly use emoticons when I write. I often find them juvenile and annoying - a way of insulting someone and then saying “just kidding! See I wink emoticoned at you”!

Do you know for sure that no riders from the Spanish Riding School don’t compete as well? I don’t know a single rider from that program in Vienna so cannot say that none of them compete, nor have they gone on to a competition career when done riding in that program.

There are not many Lipps in the US, so not a good sample size. I scribed for one last weekend competing with an AA at PSG who scored in the 60s, and that horse routinely scores in the mid 60s at PSG. In addition, I’ve seen some with such poor gaits that it was painful to watch, paddling heavily at the trot and consequently could barely canter.

I also feel the need to point out that there is Temple Lipizzans in Illinois - many who have competed over the years and have offspring in the show ring today.

In addition, our current USDF president, USEF high performance advisor, and highly sought after clinician George Williams spent the first 20 years of his career in the US at Temple LIpizzans. It is possible to do be both a classical and a competitive rider.

[outerbanks77]

@before_color

I mention my “friend” because she epitomizes a competition dressage rider. All three of her horses have developed a lateral walk since she has started riding them. And her BNT has her doing flying changes on a horse who consistently scores around 50% at second level so now the solution is to go to third level and throw a double bridle on the horse.

Well if she is scoring 50%, she is not competitive. She is just someone who is riding poorly and choosing to show that in competitions. She is not being rewarded in competition, so it is weird to say that she “epitomizes” competitive dressage.

For every person riding poorly with blocks, I’m sure there is one riding poorly bareback, or in a pancake saddle or a treeless saddle, or whatever. The saddle is a tool and all tools can be misused.

[BigMama1]

@before_color

I mention my “friend” because she epitomizes a competition dressage rider. All three of her horses have developed a lateral walk since she has started riding them. And her BNT has her doing flying changes on a horse who consistently scores around 50% at second level so now the solution is to go to third level and throw a double bridle on the horse.

To me that has nothing to do with being a “competition rider” and everything to do with being a not very good rider, and / or making a poor choice of trainer. Just because someone is a BNT that doesn’t make them a great horse person!or a great trainer. There are plenty of BNTs out there who I wouldn’t want as my trainer.

As for balancing on the horse’s mouth being unfair, everything is unfair if you look at it that way. Sitting on a horse is unfair. Expecting them to work is unfair. Putting them in a trailer to go to a clinic is unfair.

Having less than perfect balance and making mistakes is part of learning - for both horse and rider. Anyone who claims their riding is 100% reins of silk and carrot stretches with never a moment of tension or lost balance is either lying or named Nick Peronace.

[BigMama1]

@before_color

If there is no difference between the classical and modern dressage, then why are there no Spanish Riding School of Vienna riders and Lipizzaner horses competing at major events anymore?

They have busy jobs as performers and aren’t interested in competing? They have better things to do? Who knows and who cares?

[CanteringCarrot]

@BigMama1

@before_color

If there is no difference between the classical and modern dressage, then why are there no Spanish Riding School of Vienna riders and Lipizzaner horses competing at major events anymore?

They have busy jobs as performers and aren’t interested in competing? They have better things to do? Who knows and who cares?

Erm, technically you brought it up, so I’m not sure why you’re being so dismissive about it. It was a point of discussion related to what you said. There are differences between classical and modern dressage, and I’m not sure how one can say that there isn’t? Dressage is sort of a catchall, but within dressage there are some different “categories” or styles, so to speak. There is a divide of sorts between classical and modern, as well as some overlaps, in some cases.

There could be a number of reasons as to why SRS riders and horses don’t compete. One of them being that their style and focus differs from modern competitive dressage in a few ways. So they’d have to shift some of their training and focus to “conform” to modern competitive dressage, but that’s not who they are, essentially.

I don’t see classical vs competition as “nonsense” but I do agree that there is good and bad dressage, period. There is appalling riding and training on both sides. Absolutely. However, there are some differences that are worth nothing or considering. It’s incredibly dismissive to call it nonsense, or say that it doesn’t matter because there is good and bad dressage. Sure, you can look at it that way on the surface, but if you want to dive a bit deeper and get into the details, there are profound differences and theories. I’ve ridden with a wide array of instructors (mostly via clinics), some of those in the classical style and some more geared toward competitive dressage. Yes, they can be two different things, and sometimes are at odds with one another.

There are some methods that I’ve learned from some of the classical instructors that produce great results, but I can’t necessarily ride that way or that movement in competition. However, I like dabbling in both or atleast opening myself up to a variety of ways so I can sort of pick and choose what works for me and my particular horse.

As I said, I agree that there is good and bad dressage, but I just don’t want to lose sight that there are different styles, theories, and methods within dressage, and that matters.

[Curly_Feather]

Same here! My bum prefers a 16.5 or a 17, but my thighs want an 18…

[BigMama1]

@CanteringCarrot

As I said, I agree that there is good and bad dressage, but I just don’t want to lose sight that there are different styles, theories, and methods within dressage, and that matters.

Of course there are different styles and theories and methods in dressage but the end goals are, or should still be the same. It doesn’t matter whether you claim to be a “classical dressage” rider, a “competition dressage” rider or just a “dressage rider,” whether you are a student of the French style, or the Spanish style, or the German style, or whatever. At the end of the day it is all dressage, all has the same goal and it is either correct / incorrect or good / not good. That’s what Charles de Kunffy told me when I interviewed him for an article once and those wise words have stuck with me.

If the training does not progressively improve the horse’s strength, balance, suppleness and quality of gaits it’s bad training. If it does not follow the training pyramid, it’s bad training.

The classical / competition thing is a false dichotomy and I think it is nonsense that some use to feel superior to others, generally meaning the term “competitive dressage” as a put down, like the poster above did.

And no matter the training methods, not every single moment of every ride, whether in the show ring or not, is going to be ideal. If the horse and rider aren’t performing the movements correctly, it’s usually because of a mistake, tension, a reflection of where they are in the learning process, or am indication of a training / riding issue. Perfection is a worthy goal but not a reasonable expectation. There’s a reason that a score of 10 means “excellent” and not “perfect.”

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

This. It’s why the “perfect practice makes perfect performance” mantra always sort of confused me. How do you get to perfect (in practice or in competition) without lots of imperfect moments along the way?

Also, riding with blocks (as long as the saddle fits the horse) is a completely different issue from over-bitting/schooling a horse in movements before the horse/rider is physically or mentally ready.

[Bluey]

@Impractical_Horsewoman

This. It’s why the “perfect practice makes perfect performance” mantra always sort of confused me. How do you get to perfect (in practice or in competition) without lots of imperfect moments along the way?

Also, riding with blocks (as long as the saddle fits the horse) is a completely different issue from over-bitting/schooling a horse in movements before the horse/rider is physically or mentally ready.

It makes sense to maybe misunderstand that phrase, as quoted.

I think the perfect practice phrase means learn the concepts, have eyes on the ground helping you so you are doing things correctly and practice what you want to achieve technically correct.

Cantering along and rushing a lead change that drags a leg behind, cluelessly, time and again is not perfect practice.

Practicing correctly if just a hint of a movement done correctly for the horse and rider’s training stage is what that phrase means.
Do not practice wrong and expect the horse to learn what is right.