Saddle fitter's posts about chair seat/alignment and using no thigh blocks

[Warmblood1]

The first image of Klimke shows him in the extended trot. He is opening his hips and bringing his knees slightly forward to accommodate for the large movement.

On the opposite end, you’ll see the leg brought back in piaffe when asking for collection:

But in general, Klimke rode with shoulder, hip, ankle alignment and was a proponent of it in his teachings:

Old school riding leaned more towards the feet jammed forward in the stirrup. This did lend to stability in the saddle but has its disadvantages. It makes it harder for the rider to follow the rein, creating harsher contact. It’s also difficult to manipulate the rider’s body for lateral work or adjustability within the gaits. But it can be more secure over fences when the style was not to do an automatic release anyways.

The various forms of two and three point are a more modern adaptation within disciplines, especially with the introduction of the automatic release. Riders going over fences and property wanted security, but it does not bode well in dressage, for example.

I do agree that large thigh blocks are not the answer to correct posture in the saddle, however. They can help but often hinder.

[Lunabear1988]

Thank you so much for this. Very helpful.

I was thinking about how trying to judge rider position from photos is especially difficult to relate it from professional at GP and a amateur at say training level. There’s just so many differences between the two one being the type of movements they are performing.

[eightpondfarm]

If you watch a video it would be better, wait until they’re at equilibrium and take a screenshot. HARD because something is always happening, but maybe if you slo-mo and watch closely you might catch them a few times at equilibrium. A rider performing a test is gonna be like watching a dingy on the sea. Maybe there are training sessions online to catch them at even keel for a longer duration??

[Lunabear1988]

Video is always more helpful for sure. Ingrid Klimke is one of my favorite riders to watch, although I will admit I’m usually not looking to see if she is perfect alignment But she does have a beautiful position in my opinion and looks harmonious on many horses that I have ever seen!

[SuzieQNutter]

I haven’t read the saddle fitters words either.

When we talk about a chair seat it usually has to do with the feet on the shoulders of the horse, not mms from an imaginary line.

Thigh blocks. I have never ridden with them. Luckily the ones at the riding school were held on by velcro, so I took them off.

I can not ride in Australian Stock Saddles. My tree trunk legs do not fit under whatever you want to call them, blocks or whatever,

[BigMama1]

Agree. The pictures slightly out of perfect alignment don’t represent a “chair seat” at all.

[Warmblood1]

My pleasure.

A picture is just a moment of time and never an accurate representation of the ride. Video is much better. Riders are going to be slightly different at GP versus training level, but the theory is the same as far as body alignment. The adaptations in seat that usually makes pictures vary is when cues are given. For example, a side pass is going to have one leg further behind the girth and the hands slightly different. The seat bones and shoulder will often tip slightly in the direction of the movement. One thing to develop an eye for is how position slightly changes when riders are asking for different movements. A seamless rider is going to give little indication of aids but they are often still visible is you pay attention to the legs, seat bones, hips, shoulders, spine/head and hands.

Seat also varies slightly per rider. Certain riders have different styles, different backgrounds in training. And you’ll also even notice a slight difference in a competition seat versus a training seat. For example, with a younger horse, the rider is going to be more generous with the back and may even ride in a more forward position. A rider riding 8 horses a day may also ride slightly different than someone riding a horse in competition.

[Warmblood1]

If you enjoy Ingrid Klimke, you’d also probably enjoy Kathrin Meyer Zu Strohen. She’s another tall, elegant German rider.

[Lunabear1988]

I will look her up, thank you.

[SillyHorse]

@Lunabear1988

And I do actually think that’s why it’s not a huge deal if my ten year old is in a chairseat right now at the sitting trot because the instructor is focusing more on her seat following and not gripping anywhere.

Unless the horse or pony your ten year-old rides is really slab-sided, her little legs cannot yet hang down over the barrel in the ideal position. Her hips can’t open enough, so her femur has to go forward rather than down.

My last horse was wide-backed with a large barrel (you know, the kind that’s advertised as “takes up your leg”) and I was always struggling to fight a chair seat. Until I retired him and bought a horse with way less barrel, I never knew I could ride with a better leg position.

[Jealoushe]

I’ve followed this person and chatted with her for some time and honestly she is very educated and I have learned a tonne from her. She even gave me advice which helped me immensely with my sitting trot. It’s something I look at now all the time when assessing myself and others and she is bang on IMO.

The bareback stuff alone convinces me.

[Jealoushe]

She does post videos all the time. I think it’s not super fair to post this here about the account because we are just looking at a few posts while she usually has very lengthy posts with multiple examples of photos and videos. She posts daily. I highly recommend everyone give her a follow.

[Jealoushe]

She doesn’t push just Stuubens she actually works on a lot of different saddles and posts all different brands. She also doesn’t just post about positions and knee blocks lol

[Lunabear1988]

Interesting, I never really thought about that! That makes a lot of sense. And she’s pretty petite for her age in general.

[Lunabear1988]

Can you share what you mean? Are you talking about something about not being traditionally aligned (like when riding bareback) helping with your sitting trot or another biomechanical element? Thanks!

I was not trying to be deceiving by posting screenshots. I did share her account and encourage people to look her up on their own. I follow her on Facebook and find some of the stuff she post interesting but some of the other stuff is definitely not traditional which is why I posted here to get opinions from some of the really educated people on COTH.

[Scribbler]

@Lunabear1988

Can you share what you mean? Are you talking about something about not being traditionally aligned (like when riding bareback) helping with your sitting trot or another biomechanical element? Thanks!

I was not trying to be deceiving by posting screenshots. I did share her account and encourage people to look her up on their own. I follow her on Facebook and find some of the stuff she post interesting but some of the other stuff is definitely not traditional which is why I posted here to get opinions from some of the really educated people on COTH.

This was my impression too after following her for several years. I do have a bit of interest in saddle fit and biomechanics, and I read her with interest for a while. She’s had some posts about evaluating static saddle fit on the horse that seemed to me completely correct and useful. It’s also quite possible she gives good advice on saddle fit for riders in person.

But my conclusion is that when she thinks too big and tries to theorize about biomechanics and the differences in the dressage seat over the years, that she doesn’t really have the knowledge base to draw accurate conclusions. She’s not a coach.

And I say this despite agreeing with several of her positions. I don’t like a constricting seat in a saddle, I expect I would not like very large blocks unless they were well away from my leg and not coming into play. I don’t like the driving seat or getting behind the movement or bracing on the reins. But I just unfortunately have to conclude that the specifics of what she says don’t hold up.

[BlueDrifter]

I am glad you posted. I like her, and the perspectives she introduces, and I agree that taking snapshots of her posts is no different than snapshots of GP riders – they don’t convey the entire picture. I think one needs to read her account for awhile to see what she offers.

In a way, it reminds me of Ddb Bennett’s collection of work that highlighted many misunderstandings of what “correct” conformation looks like.

[Lunabear1988]

Those of you who have been following her for a long time, can you expand on what her viewpoint actually is? Is she advocating to ride with the leg or thigh a little bit forward or is she pointing out that these riders are not in a chair seat and should not be criticized as such? I followed her for a while but I’m not 100% sure. Maybe I just missed an important post.

I tend to ride in a chair seat so while I would love to have that be a good thing I’m not sure if it is. I am very interested in removing my thigh blocks as don’t think they do me any favors. In fact I think they contribute to a chair seat for my conformation.

[Scribbler]

@Lunabear1988

Those of you who have been following her for a long time, can you expand on what her viewpoint actually is? Is she advocating to ride with the leg or thigh a little bit forward or is she pointing out that these riders are not in a chair seat and should not be criticized as such? I followed her for a while but I’m not 100% sure. Maybe I just missed an important post.

I tend to ride in a chair seat so while I would love to have that be a good thing I’m not sure if it is. I am very interested in removing my thigh blocks as don’t think they do me any favors. In fact I think they contribute to a chair seat for my conformation.

I am unclear what her larger perspective is, other than being critical of some of the tendencies of modern competition dressage. Since I also train in a school with related critiques I want more consistency in the critique. As far as Deb Bennett her conformation studies are rooted in a professional life as a paleontologist seducing function from skeleton. Her training claims are less precise because she is not a horse professional. Many of them I agree with up to a point but she’s not my go-to reference for that.

As far as chair seat, whatever Klimke is doing in this snapshot is not not not what @Lunabear1988 or I are struggling with as older ammie riders :). No, we cannot embrace our chair seat based on one moment in Klimke extended trot. Honestly the more I correct my chair seat the more functional my riding.

Related, you can see Grand Prix jumpers with short stirrups who are beautifully balanced but if you see a snapshot of them walking out on a loose rein sitting in the tack, it can look chair seat because of the short stirrups. But it’s not and they ride out of the tack during their jump round. True chair seat makes two point impossible and indeed two point in a jump saddle is a good cure.

[Warmblood1]

I’m trying to figure out if the saddle fitter person is saying it is appropriate to ride in any position other than neutral, IE. on the seat bones.

Pelvic tilt will vary person to person. So will the degree of bend in joints due to difference in height and body type.

If a person is riding balanced on their seat bones, the variations are irrelevant - the body will be in alignment.

The variation in seat bone balance may change when a person is temporarily giving cues but the position returns back to alignment.