Yes, it does. Thank you 
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Another thing… I think the shoulder/hip/heel alignment thing, as well as heels down! carries over more from the jumping and forward seat riding and is less applicable to dressage. It’s important to be balanced over your feet and make your ankles, knees and hips into essentially a spring that is aligned to prevent falling forward or back while galloping or jumping. Those joints don’t support in quite the same way when riding dressage - more weight is taken through the thighs and less down through the stirrup and heel, so the effect is different when the leg is a little forward. The body still needs to be upright to avoid getting behind the motion though.
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Great discussion guys thank you!
I think this is maybe the saddle fitter’s whole point. But I think you wrote it out much more clearly.
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“Balance has nothing to do with legs. They are incidental. You use your butt and torso to balance and your legs for cues. They are loose appendages that increase or apply pressure in various places.” You are 100% incorrect here, eightpondfarm. You later reiterated with, “the legs are incidental to balance.” Nope. I have an excellent exercise to prove this to you in a microsecond. Have your instructor put you on the lunge line. Take your feet out of the irons. Have her/him put the horse into a trot. Now, holding on to the front of the saddle, (because I don’t want you to come off) I would like to you to pull both legs as far away from the sides of the horse as possible. Please hold this position all the way around a 20m circle, using only your “butt and torso” for balance. Hint: you can’t. You’ll be lucky to make it 2 strides. Your legs are absolutely necessary for balance. Let’s see you try rising trot without irons. Again, if your legs aren’t on the horse, you simply cannot do it. Your notion is on the right track insofar as you shouldn’t grip with your legs ever. But having them “just hang there,” is entirely incorrect.
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Oh gah, no. I think this goes back to eightpond and not Mondo but the quoting is a bit messed up. Anyway, absolutely, not, no, never ever. Those large glutes (butt) have absolutely nothing to do with balancing you in the saddle!
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The closer I get to in line, the more balanced I am, the easier everything is, the more willingly my horse goes. I’m attempting to attach a photo, but on these forums who knows if it will work… my heel is still slightly in front of hip socket, but her size is part of why. My more slab sided mare, the alignment is just easy. You can see by her movement that this is pretty much JJ’s ideal for my position (assuming photo works.)
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I have an excellent little balance test for you Mondo. Drop your reins and let your riding instructor control the horse and stand up in your stirrups and trot and see how well you do with balance without your body in the saddle. Betcha you’ll have a much worse time of it than i will in your gotcha exercise.
Legs/feet are for instructions, communication, to your horse, same as arms/hands are. If you have to use your legs in the stirrups to balance yourself you need more time in the saddle. (or better yet, more time on the horse bareback). And, I think riders might be better served without the thigh blocks. I guess they might aid imputing muscle-memory into the legs, but if you’re bracing on them i just can’t see how that helps you. Same as bracing into your stirrups. To leave your legs free, mobile to give cues, (that is the goal right?)
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I think people get the wrong idea about thigh/knee blocks. If your saddle fits you correctly, you shouldn’t even notice they are there - they shouldn’t be forcing your leg into a certain position and you definitely shouldn’t be bracing against them. There’s no muscle memory involved. Even as your horse trots or canters, you still shouldn’t notice them or be hitting them - unless you are being thrown around in your tack (then there are strength issues at play).
If two saddles are the same model and have the same seat depth, but one has tall blocks and the other pencil blocks should ride pretty damn similar for someone who fits the saddle well. I think people seem to prefer big blocks because it makes them feel more secure if a horse spooks or bolts. I don’t really see that they come into play for every day riding.
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There is a reason when stirrups were invented riding took off for the general population.
It didn’t take a very competent, limber body to stay with a moving horse once we had stirrups to help with balance.
Horse movement and human bodies while riding horses work by physical laws and those depend of more than mere balance, other vectors are involved to keep both masses working together.
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LOL. Dear eightpondfarm - I am a trainer, lo these last 40 years. I can quite easily do your exercise, and you should be able to as well. That is actually a test I used to give students before they could learn to jump - w/t/c both ways of the ring in 2 point position. So, I don’t need your advice, thanks. But I do believe you have aways to go with your balance and position if you think it’s done with torso and seat.
ETA - that 2 point position at all 3 gaits had to be done without stirrups.
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Retired trainer here and I did much the same with my students. Always no stirrups.
Edited to add: I’ve always liked the analogy (Sally Swift, I think?) of letting your legs go long by imagining they are wet towels draping down the horse’s sides.
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I know this discussion has wandered a bit at this point from this - but I lost a ton of respect for CH when she was doing a clinic near me years ago and magically, she wanted EVERY SINGLE RIDER to try a Stubben and then declared them better. It completely smelled of a sponsored rider with an agenda.
It always seems like there is this barely disguised contempt from some posters for riders who use anything other that a pancake flat saddle with no blocks at all. It always comes across as “you just need to learn to ride better and get stronger” rather than accepting that everyone rides a bit differently and has different anatomy.
One thing that I think most saddle fitters overlook is how different anatomy can be. They’ll spend hours doing wither tracings and making minute adjustments to flocking to fit every nuance of a horse’s muscling and structure. But I spent years trying different saddles and never being comfortable or as effective as I could be because what I have is a very narrow pelvis that is quite tipped up. I need a super narrow twist with a very severe rise, or I’m constantly fighting being tipped forward.
Alternatively, I have a good friend whose thigh naturally hangs forward from the joint so has a terribly exaggerated chair seat. A flat seat is exactly what she needs.What is the best configuration for me, is actually painful for her. It doesn’t make one of us better than the other, it just means we don’t ever use each other’s saddle.
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Just asking. What is the point of them then? Being down in the saddle is what keeps you safe without blocks during a shy or bolt.
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Yes! I have had two Custom Advantages (one R, one Monoflap) and a Gemini R, all with the short slanted blocks, and different because of different horse shapes. But a super narrow twist, very high rise in front, and flat spot in the seat for me to sit on are all required for me to be very comfortable in the saddle. I’d happily go without blocks and with less cantle, but for the high rise I need in front, saddles usually also have a tall back balancing it out. You could likely ride comfortably in my saddles which most people seem to hate!
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When i hear the word chair seat i think if 2 positions. 1. When a pro does it at upper levels with bend in their knee and its because if their pelvis and a few inches infront - normal and legit …tgeres tons of data on that for the female pelvis…
2. When a beginning AA rerider type does this with a straight knee…then youre effed…
The margin if falling off just increased because they arent on their leg.
In fact this bothers me so much when dudes ride their hogs down the highway in a chair seat i fear for their life…
Does this saddle fitter ride?
Has she shown a green as grass 3 year old when they spook passing the judges stand ? Cause i wouldnt want to be in a chair seat for that.
Has she ridden a medium or extended trot on a huge moving warmblood??? Please lock me in…
Has she started a young warmblood that in one spooky move can drop up simply from athleticism?
I dont like saddles that put me in a purposeful chair seat - but i have one on trial right now for my horses with big shoulders and it puts me in more of a chair seat and im not 100% keen on it…had yo shorten my stirrups so there was more bend in my knee.
Lastly - back to the AA’s…
Have you ever watched a rerider try to one rein stop their horse in a cheap saddle and lose their balance and fall off the other side???
They cant handle the twirly’s and its going to take them roughly 2 years to get comfortably back riding with co fidence - so they need all the saddle support they can get.
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I find that several things can put me in a chair seat.
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My conformation. I feel as though my legs come out of my body at a more forward angle. I’ve spent ages stretching and strengthening parts of my body and it has helped me have a more relaxed and straight leg, but I can’t totally change my conformation. If I keep up on my stretching, that really helps keep everything loose or free where it needs to be.
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Stirrup bar position. This is a big one. So many saddles have them too far forward for me!
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I need a flat spot. The first time I rode in my current saddle (Amerigo), I thought, omg, I can sit the canter. There is a place for me to sit. I came from riding in a saddle that was way too deep and essentially like sitting in a fruit bowl. It was a custom made to measure saddle that showed up not fitting me or the horse
but that’s another story for another time. -
Flap position. Generally, I do not need a forward flap, and on some saddles the flap is placed rather forward in respect to the center of the seat.
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Blocks. If they’re in the wrong place they’ll jam me up into a chair seat. Interestingly, I’ve had short blocks and longer blocks that have both worked. Depends on their size and exact position I guess.
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Fitting the horse. My horse is rather uphill so this can throw me in the back seat if the saddle isn’t fitted properly. Basically, when the rear of the saddle is lifted enough. The difference in height between his withers and back is…a lot. It’s nor because he had a shark fin, it’s just his build.
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Twist. I’d say I’m in the middle. Something too narrow and I feel as though I’m sitting astride a post and rail fence, something too wide and I can’t function.
So if by some miracle I can balance all of the above into one saddle, then I have no chair seat.
I do find a lot of people are very tight in their hips and psoas. Actually, it blows my mind sometimes how many body issues that riders have that they don’t address. Meanwhile, the horse has the vet, chiro, acupuncture, massage, stretches, a thorough warm-up, etc. Then the rider sits at a desk all day then hops on and just goes. I find that I need to do things off of the horse to make me better on the horse.
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For people who have a strong seat, yes that is correct. But for people who don’t, those blocks may help keep them in the saddle, and for someone feeling unsecure or nervous that would be a selling point. I remember seeing a post (I don’t remember who it was or when) where someone said a saddle had such large blocks they couldn’t get launched to the point of being unsafe. So I assume they do have some function in that area to those that feel they need it?
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Since we’re talking chair seats…putting myself out there, but this is the one problem I’ve never had! My issue is always my leg slipping back (when I don’t want it to) versus getting pushed too far forward. Maybe because my legs are short relative to my torso?
Comfort and personal taste. That is all. I don’t get all the hate for thigh blocks or for flat saddles. One doesn’t make someone a better rider than the other. Ride in what works for you.
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