Saddle saga: Bates Elevation?

[Fruehling]

Back story: I’ve been on the hunt for a jumping saddle for over a year now. I live in the boonies, so there’s little opportunity to try on saddles. I have borrowed/tried probably 2 dozen from friends even if they weren’t for sale just to see. Last spring I bought a M tree mondega that ended up fitting quite narrow and I never used it. I also bought a Santa Cruz with a medium tree which fit when I bought it, and over the course of about 2 months (and getting fit) it became too narrow. It also doesn’t fit me well so I’m not too sad about that. Next I bought a MW collegiate. I measured every inch of that thing, but when I finically got it, it turns out it has too much rock (too curved of a tree) and doesn’t sit properly. I recently tried a friend’s bate carpilli. I really liked it. It was comfortable and fit my horse really close. I’m really considering getting a bates now that I’ve tried on, and because of my location, having such a hard time finding something that fits right.

So here’s my issues:

I’m tall (5’10) with a long femur. The regular flap caprilli was not forward enough (my knee cap stuck out past it when my stirrups still needed to go up another hole) and I like having my stirrups quite short, even jumping in the arena. I like a flatter saddle (I don’t like blocks/rolls/deep seat when jumping) the caprilli was about my “max” for dept. My horse has a very flat back, and her shoulder comes back quite far. Most saddles look like they’re sitting way too far back to clear her scapula. Most saddles also have panels that are too curved, whether left or right, or front to back. She needs it very flat in both directions. The caprilli sat in the right place, but had just a little too much curve. Not a bad fit, just not perfect.

This got me looking at the bates elevation. It appears to have more forward flap, flatter seat, and flatter panels than the caprilli. I’m looking for someone who has experienced both, or maybe even the caprilli with forward flaps as well as regular and the elevation. The elevation looks like a good idea to me, especially with the panel fittings the bates have, but I just need to confirm that the saddle flap will actually be forward enough, the panels are flatter than the caprilli, and that it doesn’t sit any further forward on the horse’s shoulder because of the more forward flap.

Any advice appreciated!

[sirensong4]

My local saddle shop has an Elevation. I’ve sat in it, and really like it for the reasons you mention–flat, narrow seat that doesn’t force you into one spot. The flap is pretty forward, but I can’t say whether the tree is flatter than the Caprilli. Caprillis have been made for a long time and have gone through some different tree models, for sure.

Bates and Wintec are the same company and the panel construction is pretty flat, compared to Collegiates and french saddles, so I am surprised that the tree had too much curve for you.

IMHO, the Pessoas (and the budget version, Ovation) are even flatter in the panel, so that might work for your horse also. And most of the Pessoas come with a long-flap order option, or check out the Ovation San Telmo or the Pessoa TT designed specifically for long legged riders.

[whitney159]

I bought a Bates caprillu event saddle in 2001. It sits super close, is very flat and lets your leg be completely free. So free that it took some getting used to. My friend got a caprilli close contact in 2004, hers is more cushy, more curved and not as close fitting as the event saddle. It’s easier for me to ride in when I’m out of shape! It just feels more secure. I’m almost your height OP and found the older event saddle has more room for a long thigh as well. No complaints about them from me, I know some hate them. I have looked at the new ones at the Dover store and can’t get past how hideous the leather looks, though an associate there told me they come with some conditioner that totally changes the appearance and its still nice. I had considered selling the event model and getting a cushier jumping saddle, since I feel like I’m kidding myself that I will ever be in shape enough to do it justice.

[beowulf]

Is there a reason you are sticking with Bates?

IME they are really more like “all purpose” feel saddles - if I was planning on doing cross country it wouldn’t be my first choice off the saddle rack.

In that same price range, I think you could a similar saddle with a better balance in regards to eventing.

Unless your horse has proven to like the panel construction of Bates/Wintec, I wouldn’t be going and spending the $1500 on a brand new Bates.

[NoSuchPerson]

The horse fitting issues you describe (flat back, shoulder extends farther back) are very similar to those I often encounter with my mules. I’ve tried and sent back quite a few saddles over the years. Thus far, the best fit I’ve found is an older model Rodrigo Pessoa.

Wintecs tend to fit pretty well, too; the Wintec Wide is a good fit for my big mule, but is an all purpose style, so probably not what you’re looking for, plus there’s no way the flap would be forward enough for you.

[Fruehling]

Sorry for resurrecting an older thread!

I used to ride her in my barn owner’s passoa. It fit us both well, but she has grown and it is too narrow now. Plus it wasn’t my saddle.

The fit on the carpilli was really close, don’t get me wrong. It was just a little too round, something that I think could be made to fit if I had it stuffed for her (flocked instead of the air panels). I tried an interchangeable collegiate today which was WAY too round. Her back doesn’t look that flat, but when she lifts her back or jumps it comes up a lot under the saddle. Even standing there with her head 6 inches above her whithers vs her head level with her whithers is enough to make a saddle that looks like it “fits” to lift up in the back.

I’m not set on sticking to bates, but after going through such a headache, the idea of an adjustable gullet and panels is really tempting. It is also one of the closest fitting saddles I’ve tried so far. I’ve also purchased 3 saddles in this process without being able to try them on first (one fit when I got it, doesn’t fit anymore), which I’m having troubles selling. So I can’t afford to spend 3k on a saddle because of how much I’m “out” in saddles!

[galloping-gourmet]

I have an older bates and LOVED it. I had the cair removed and had it flocked…It’s pretty much worn out now and I’m searching too. The new ones have different leather, my friend purchased a newer one after riding in mine, and it has never softened up…

My horse sounds like yours, big shoulder, flatter back. I purchased an Ainsley pro national and it seemed ok, but it’s making him sore, so I’m back on the hunt…It’s pretty frustrating…

What did you end up getting?

[Fruehling]

I ended up with the older style Bates Elevation (H).

I love it. Fits me really well (probably could have gone 0.5" bigger in the seat, but I’m happy with this), very comfortable, and I’ve noticed a huge difference in my position now that my leg has somewhere to go.

It fits her differently than other saddles I’ve tried and considered “fitting” her. It’s more airy up front, but has more contact along the full length of the panels. It sits a little further back, but the billets are in a good place. As a result, when she sweats, almost the entire area of the panels is dry while everything else is sweaty. I did some reading on this and apparently dry spots aren’t always bad? From what I understand, if the dry spots are large and even (in my case everywhere it touches almost), it can just mean even distribution.

She seems to like it. She’s more willing the change clean, less lead swapping, and just generally less fussy. I realize part of that is likely because I’m riding better and more balanced, but I think it really does fit her.