Saddle Shopping question- who to trust/what to buy

[CHT]

My saddle shopping experience has not gone well. Started looking in the spring, and struggling to get any help from saddle fitters, so I may be less objective and less trusting by this point.

I am currently down to two options:

1. A used Kentaur. It doesn’t fit, and isn’t that comfortable. The seller/saddle fitter thinks it could be made to fit based on pictures I sent, but she hasn’t seen it in person, and can’t come out for a couple weeks. The fit seems close to me, but slightly low in back, and seems tight around his shoulders/withers. It slipped back a LOT when I rode. I have only done a brief ride in it without stirrups.

Today’s saddle fitter says it is too flat front to back, and that it slips back because it is looking to settle on his flat thoracic and that it doesn’t have enough curve to accommodate his withers/shoulders. She also said that Kentaur tend to be hard. My butt lacks fat so not sure I want to deal with hard.

I would only buy this on the premise that it could be made to fit my guy’s shoulders, but how can I trust/know it will fit once adjusted?

2. A custom Black Country. I rode in a used one today. It was comfortable for me, and although it looked high in front, I kept having to push myself back a bit? It also slipped back, although not as much…but for reasons I don’t grasp, it was ok (to the fitter) that this saddle slipped back, but not ok the other one did? Possibly because she only saw me ride in this saddle and not the first.

But then she measured his back based on where a saddle would typically fit, not where he seems to want the saddle to go. (she measured before I rode)

The horse has tall withers, big shoulders, and then a long, flat sausage body. Every saddle I have ever used on him slides back, but it doesn’t feel awkward for me, and it doesn’t slide back past his thoracic. I think it is in part because he has massive shoulders, and no girth grove…

Option two is going to be a little over double of option one. I have heard good and bad things about both fitters.

[CHT]

Saddle #1 before I rode. It slipped back another 4+ inches after I rode

[Renn_aissance]

Why do you need to buy either one of two bad options? I would keep looking.

The Kentaur doesn’t need to sit on your horse’s back again.

You should be able to have a conversation with the fitter about why whatever they’re recommending is suitable for you and your horse, and they should be able to explain their recommendations in language that makes sense to you. So your questions about having to push yourself back in the Black Country and why it was OK that it slipped back would be great questions to ask her. Ask her to point out what factors of your horse’s anatomy and way of going are leading to her recommendations. I’m not clear from your post on whether the particular BC that you sat in has the specs of the custom model you might buy, but if not, she should be able to explain to you what would be different about the one you would order from her, and why that would be of benefit to your horse.

[NancyM]

I’m not familiar with either of these types of saddle. But if you don’t like either of them, try some others. There are lots of different types and makes of saddle available- think outside the box. Find something that you like, feel secure in, that fits your horse. Older saddles may not be the “newest thing” and currently “in style”, but tend to be well made and last a long time, and are cheap to buy.

Saddles that are that “thick” under the seat (like the one in the picture above) hold your butt a large distance from the surface of the horse’s back, which, by physics, makes you unstable (the effect of forces on a lever- the depth of the seat being the “lever” and the force being the motion of the horse). No amount of knee padding or “blocks” will fix this, it is simply a bad situation. Try to get as close to the horse as possible to feel secure and comfortable in the tack. Less is more.

My favourate makes of saddle are: Stubben, Passier, Courbette, Crosby, etc. The oldies, with no padding anywhere. They work for me the same as they have for the last 45 years. Quality is timeless.

[TheDBYC]

Back in July, I had an independent saddle fitter do an initial consultation for the pony we lease. She spent a long time studying the pony’s musculature tackless. Tracings from 5 different spots were transfered onto a matrix on a large sheet of paper so she could see the ratios. The pony is an adults only kind of ride & that makes finding something that fits her in that it doesn’t go way past T18 & also halfway works for a small adult difficult. She needs a MW gullet with a more gently graduated shape or her shoulders get pinched & saddles tend to slide forward on her. The position & angle the billets are set at seems to make a big difference in keeping the saddle from sliding forward.

The pony is a short term lease & unfortunately i’m not in the financial position to buy a saddle that is a perfect 10 fit for her. (Resale would take several months & I couldn’t buy another saddle with $3k tied up ) However, I was impressed that the fitter was able to arrive at a perfect 10 fit (no shims in half pads, etc.) for this pony and we have a starting point for finding something that can fit decently with some minor tweaks. I also felt like the consult was worth the money in general knowledge gained.

Older saddles can be great. They often need reflocking, but at least they can be reflocked.

[Posting_Trot]

If the saddle-fitter isn’t offering saddles that work either for you or your pony, then ditch the saddle-fitter. Maybe the Kentaur will work for your horse after the re-stuffing, but it doesn’t sound like you love how it feels for you. Those two things can be related, but I don’t think I’d bet on some magical transformation.

And although a new, custom Black Country would (hopefully) work at least for the horse, again if you don’t like riding in it, what’s the point? (Also, see all of the threads about various custom saddle disasters!).

Unless your horse’s back is truly weird, you should be able to find a saddle that works for both of you.

Presumably your fitter took tracings of the horse’s back. Thank her/him for their work, pay them their fee, and ask to have a copy of the tracings. Then work through a large tack-shop that carries an inventory of used saddles who will work with the tracings.

Good luck.

[CHT]

The horse’s back is truly weird. He has big shoulders/withers, but then a level thoracic. I have ridden/been around a lot of horses…none built like this guy. I have been trying to find used, but so far it’s only been the “I think this will work with adjustment, but you have to buy before we adjust it”, but how on earth do I know if the saddle will feel decent if I have to try it with it not fitting?

So far two fitters have recommended the Black Country as being the saddle to fit this horse. The saddle I tried was made for someone shorter than me, and because it wasn’t fit for the horse, I wasn’t positioned where I would be in a fitting saddle…but the seat was soft and when I was in the right spot, it was comfortable.

[CHT]

He NEEDs a saddle thick under the seat as his shoulders are massive and much higher than his back, and because his back is flat and long, the saddle sits where the back is still flat; most horses start to curve up at that point, but he does not. It would be impossible for a saddle to be level on him without heavy padding under the seat…which I agree is not ideal! Without the padding in the back, the saddle would have to be massively cut back around the wither.

@Renn_aissance I am somewhat limited to what is available in my area, and I can’t search forever…at some point I want to be able to actually develop my horse! I had a saddle fitter come out a couple months ago that completely dropped the ball on me, and now she has gone to Europe for 3 months…so left with these two other fitters. The two fitters that have actually seen this horse seem in agreement as to what he needs in a saddle, but neither had anything that would fit him for me to try in stock. I have worked in the industry for 30 years…never before worked with a horse built like this guy. He really changed as he matured.

[CHT]

Oh, and to be fair to the fitter who came yesterday, she did try to explain things to me, but I had been up all night at the ER with my dog (kicked in the face by a deer), so I was struggling to make sense of things. She is going to email me the details today or tomorrow.

[mvp]

I don’t think the Kentaur looks like a good fit. I think the balance is off, with the pommel being higher than the cantle in the side view picture. And I don’t think the flaps follow the line of his body behind his scapula in the 3/4 shot you sent.

Perhaps seeing a side view of this weird back would give people ideas.

I have lived in places where I had to have saddles shipped into me. It can be hard if you can only look in tack shops near you.

I do think that a fitter needs to address the way all the saddles want to slide back on this horse. If that’s not too, too far, you guys have to fit the saddle where it comes to rest because, by God, that’s where it’s going to go every time or when the fitter isn’t there to see it. OR, the fitter has to know about that feature/tendency of this horse and find you the magic saddle that doesn’t do that.

Personally, I’d keep looking, ship some in after working at a distance via pictures and wither tracings with a good fitter and borrow something to ride him in until I found the right saddle. And if I have anything that would work for y’all, I’ll lend you one of mine.

I do have some old school Stubben dressage saddles that aren’t employed right now and you are welcome to one of those if you want a loaner and that’s half-way right for you both.

[luvmyhackney]

Keep looking.

Finding the right saddle is like finding a perfect fitting dress or suit and you just know when it’s the one. I found mine, so fingers crossed you will find yours as well. It’s really hard to find a good fitter, I lucked out with mine.

[Renn_aissance]

First off, I hope your dog is okay! That sounds scary.

I totally understand that you need to actually ride your horse one of these days. My concern about you starting off with a saddle that’s an expensive unknown is that it sounds like your horse’s topline is changing with age or work, and if what he has now does not work for him, then when you put 6 months on him in a saddle that does suit him, his back is going to develop and the new saddle might not work. I think you’re wise to look at wool-flocked saddles for that reason, but if I were you I’d also be asking the fitter about how much latitude you would have in the current target ideal fit for the horse’s topline to get stronger both laterally and longitudinally as it matures.

As for “how do I know it’ll fit when you order it for me if it doesn’t fit now,” something to explore if the fitter has access might be to find one that’s close enough that she could add shims in the areas where she’d add flocking (assuming that’s what she’s doing, not taking away.) I have not done this with wool saddles, but I’ve done it quite a few times with foam.

If you want to throw top and side view of the horse up here, people may have some ideas.

[CHT]

Saddle fitter that was out does offer saddle rentals, and she thought she had an AP that might work “for now”, but even with a riser it was too low in back by a fair bit. It would need more than reflocking, or shims to fit.

A long time ago I worked with Frank Baines to get me a dressage saddle, and the process was awesome. I am just not having a good experience this time around.

[CHT]

His back comes up a fair bit when ridden, more like the grazing picture than the barn picture.

[CHT]

And a bonus: the sad dog with $1000 worth of facial stitches.

[CHT]

Something else that is annoying me is that the saddle fitter #2 didn’t ask to see him move. I don’t even think she pulled his leg forward. I had to ask if I could try the one saddle she brought out. She did watch me ride and was surprised at how he carried himself. Saddle fitter #1 had me walk him and move his front legs to check for measurements, and I remember when I had a saddle made by Frank Baines, he had me mark where my horse’s shoulder came back to when his leg was extended.

I think this is why I am having issues trusting fitter #2. I don’t think you can fit a stationary horse, but then maybe a really skilled person can?

just really frustrated as I really liked saddle fitter #1, but she totally dropped the ball: promised to send me his measurements and her suggestions, but I never got them even when I followed up…and when she stopped by with a saddle she hoped would fit, it was a horrid fit, so I don’t know what to think. Maybe I should wait until #3 can come out, but her option was the Kentaur, and I don’t think I would be willing to spend custom saddle money on something that hurts my butt.

[Gardenhorse]

There are several online saddle consignment stores that will work with you from back tracings that you do yourself. If you’re really not having any luck with the in-person fitters, that might be an option to consider. Most of those places will offer 1-week trials on the saddles. Would the in-person fitters work with a potential saddle that you sourced yourself rather than through them?

[CHT]

I am sure they would, money is money right? That was the point of fitter #1 - she was supposed to send me her recommendations and measurements so I could shop, but I never got them. I wonder if she lost them and won’t admit it?

I actually haven’t found any shops in Canada that had anything that they thought would be a close fit or I would give that option a try (send them measurements - I can do my own measurements, I just can’t match what I measure to a potential saddle)

[mvp]

I saddled a horse very much like that in a Stubben Tristan Special.

This was a dressage saddle. And I created my own bounce pad with a folded towel under the cantle section, plus a ThinLine pad that didn’t change the saddle fit. I think I have pictures of him somewhere, if I can figure out how to upload those.

The big deal about the Tristan Special that made it fit this horse was the half-panels. Think of panels that are very short in the vertical direction: The just fill in the wither hollows and then end so that the lower part of the flap has nothing on it. Saddle seat saddles are commonly built this way.

In your spot, I’d look for that half-panel-esque configuration. I think it will be a contributing factor to any saddle that fits this kind of back.

But you want a CC saddle, yes? Size for you and budget? I’ll keep my eyes peeled and see if I come across anything.

[sheltona01]

Oh he is fun!