Saddle sliding forward - saddle fitter woes

[fermecinqsens]

I bought a Custom Wolfgang Solo (used) last year for my 4 yo Lusitano. It seemed to fit like a glove: I could ride with the girth literally hanging (by accident) and the saddle wouldn’t move. It also was the first saddle I’ve ever had/tried that felt like it fit my long thighs properly.
However this year my horse is 5 and has filled out a bit. Now the saddle slips forward. I suspected maybe it had gotten too narrow and had a fitter out to check/adjust it. As soon as the fitter arrived I did not have confidence in her. She believes the saddle is actually too wide. She also showed the saddle and photos to her mentor who said the tree shape is too curvy for my horse. I don’t know how he came to that conclusion given that he didn’t see it on the horse and the fitter didn’t even check the balance or if it rocks (it doesn’t). The mentor also says it doesn’t fit my leg and that I’m sitting too far at the cantle which, combined with the saddle being too wide and wrong tree shape, is making it go forward.

I don’t believe any of this. For one thing, the saddle never used to move and if it’s due to tree shape his back wasn’t curvy before and straight now - it’s still the same shape.

For another, if they believe it’s too wide now then it would have been even wider before when he was younger. Also, she said my jump saddle is too wide (which I knew) but that saddle doesn’t slide forward.

I also don’t agree that it doesn’t fit me. I’m the one sitting in it and I know what a saddle feels like when it does/doesn’t fit me. If I’m sitting at the cantle it’s because the saddle has slipped forward onto his shoulder and the balance is thrown off.

Anyway they told me I need to buy a new saddle.

Maybe I’m just out to lunch and these things are actually true, but I’m skeptical.

Any ideas what’s causing the saddle to slip forward?

He does have a bit of a belly right now and I wonder if that’s causing it to gravitate forward.

[luvmyhackney]

When my saddle was sliding forward it was too wide. The fitter added a couple of shims in the front of the half pad and no more sliding forward. Then she adjusted the flocking to accommodate. Unless large changes, your saddle can probably be adjusted.

I’m not a saddle fitter, just my experience.

[Eclectic_Horseman]

Aren’t Lusitanos one of those mutton withered breeds often ridden in cruppers?

I think that cruppers are invaluable for some breeds until they are done growing and filling out.

[fermecinqsens]

They can be, although the crupper is part of the traditional costume so maybe it’s more used for that than for necessity.
i have two Lusitanos and neither are mutton-withered. The one in question has a medium-sized wither and M width.
Although actually my other Lusitano always has a problem with saddles sliding forward. I think for her it’s because she has a massively forward girth groove. Which also tends to be a Lusitano thing.

[luvmyhackney]

Have you tried using a different girth(s) and using the back to billets on the saddle?

I’m sure you have but just in case.

[fermecinqsens]

Normally I use a Wow H girth which is specifically for horses with forward girth grooves and otherwise difficult with keeping the saddle in place. I use it because I had it for my other horse already. It’s the same girth I always used. Since it’s been slipping forward I tried out a normal girth and it still slipped forward.

[Lusoluv]

When my last easy-keeper developed a belly on summer grass, my saddle started moving forward. I tried some different shaped girths and they didn’t help. I did tighten the girth 1 hole and put her on a diet. That helped!

[PonyApocalypse19]

You may need different girth billet placement - especially the front one - like a point billet that comes straight down from the point of the tree. In the picture of it tightened down with the girth, both billets are angled in a different direction from where they hang naturally, so in essence it is going to pull your saddle forward. I think you’re on to something with the forward girth groove and the little belly he has. You could also try a shaped girth with a larger leather foot print of some sort so the girth billets connect straight down and you can get more stability.
Also if the balance of the saddle still feels correct to you before it slides forward, then the width is most likely ok. If you feel like you’re in a chair seat then it’s too narrow and high in front. If you feel like you’re being pushed forward and your legs are behind you and you keep on trying to scoot yourself back towards the cantle, then it’s too low in front and too wide. The saddle may look ok balance wise until you sit in it and compress the flocking.
I would try another independent saddle fitter if you can find one - someone with more experience and can do an on site assessment.

[gailbyrd]

I’ve got 2 horses on which the saddle will slide forward if the saddle is too narrow. And it looks like your saddle is too narrow which makes sense. If it fit before and didn’t move and now it does as he’s put on muscle, it’s too narrow.

I had to have my saddle widened and a point billet put on it to keep it from sliding forward. In addition, I use a contoured girth. Can’t tell you how much I had to insist this is what was needed. I’m not a saddle fitter but I know what works for MY horse.

But take my experience for what it’s worth, not even $0.02.

[fermecinqsens]

It does have a point billet already. This saddle has half panels so it’s basically a monoflap (under the outer flap there is nothing - just the panel and the billets hanging down).
I could try a crescent girth. But the Wow H girth is meant to be for stability - there is a large sternum pad for keeping the girth in place. However maybe because he has that belly now the back strap is interfering with his belly. Or maybe it needs to be a wider girth right from the top instead of those straps that can get pulled around?

I could potentially send it to Custom themselves with his tracings and see if they want to widen it.

Geeze I wish I would have come on here first since these opinions are much more sensible than the one I just spent a fortune to get from this saddle fitter…

[Bogey2]

Was this a Custom Saddlery person you just had out? I have the same saddle and used it for my then 5 yr. old PRE 3 years and now my 3 yr old Lusitano. I never had it slip forward on either horse but did use a Custom saddle fitter every time I had it checked/adjusted. Your horse does look a bit chonky, my PRE got saddle bags when he was too fat so never developed the belly.
I like the shim idea someone mentioned above, I have a couple of pads that I use to adjust the balance until I can get the fitter out.
You look great on him!! Love the jacket color!

[fermecinqsens]

Just wanted to update because I’m still having problems and really hoping for some ideas!!

I tried a the saddle on a trail ride with my thinline pad and a front shim. Amazingly it did not move for the entire ride, UNTIL the homestretch when he started to power walk and then it slid up onto his shoulder again.
Which makes me wonder if it’s happening because he’s using his back more? When I got the saddle for him last year he was four and learning how to do basic w/t/c steering. Now he does more complicated stuff and engages his back more.
He also already has a very short Lusitano back with well-filled in croup that is almost roachy. Although this saddle is meant to be designed for horses with this style of topline.

If this is the case, what can be done to help with this? Please don’t say buy another saddle

[Jackie_Cochran]

Warning, I have yet to put my Spanish saddle on a live horse because I am waiting on the stirrup leathers and girths I ordered to come here, then I will start negotiations so I can get a riding lesson in it from my regular riding teacher on one of her lesson horses.

I got a Talavara Potrera Spanish saddle. So far I have only used it on my riding simulator, the Home Horse, and I doubt that this saddle would be show legal in any type of class. The Spanish Riding School often uses Spanish saddles since it is the type of saddle used for dressage riding when the SRS opened.

This particular Spanish saddle has a leather tree, therefore it can adjust to different horses and it can adjust when the horse’s back and shoulders change shape. The underneath of the saddle is covered with canvas, which seems to have pretty good grip on my Home Horse, in as I have to take all my weight off this saddle to move it around on the HH.

For me this is the most comfortable saddle I have sat in during my over 50 years of serious riding. I feel SECURE in it, which is not surprising since it was developed as a colt breaking saddle. The sheepskin saddle cover really helps with my comfort and I do not slide around in the saddle.

The Spanish leather tree saddles are a good bit cheaper than regular dressage saddles, like they cost over $1,600 without any fittings or sheepskin saddle cover (with ALL the fittings including the sheepskin saddle cover my saddle costs $2,600 USD). They take dressage girths. The stirrup leathers have to be shorter because of where they attach to the saddle, and I would recommend some type of safety stirrups since the leathers attach to a D-ring on the saddle instead of a stirrup bar.

My saddle is made by Monturas Artisanas de Talavera saddlery, and there is another brand with the leather tree, the Hidalgo Spanish saddles.

They are MUCH CHEAPER than regular dressage saddles and a rider should be able to use the same saddle throughout dressage training without hurting the horse’s back.

My second riding teacher, who comes out to my house to help me ride this saddle on my Home Horse, also adores this saddle. She has been all over it, took the sheepskin cover off and put it back on, with some difficulty because the sheepskin cover is TIGHT on the saddle and does not move. There are little touches, like how the buckle of the stirrup leather sort of nests into the leather tree and has two thinner leather flaps between it and the rider’s leg. It has an attachment for a crupper, and enough rings so I could tie myself into this saddle without much difficulty (2 rings in front, two in the rear, plus the crupper attachment.)

This saddle seems to have been developed over centuries, first to make sure that it is comfortable for the horse, and then to make sure it is comfortable for the rider.

Once you get your horse trained and its muscles strong and fit, THEN you could go through saddle fitting hell if you wanted to show in dressage classes.

[dmveventer]

It’s possible the saddle fits differently when he’s working than it does when he’s just standing still. A good fitting will include an evaluation while the horse is being worked/ridden to account for this. If your fitter isn’t doing that I would find one who will and get a second opinion.

[CanteringCarrot]

Yeah, my horses saddle is fit to him moving and how he uses himself. Definitely need a static and dynamic evaluation from a good fitter.

IME, when a saddle slides forward, it’s because the saddle isn’t right for the horse in some way. A saddle that’s a good fit and properly girthed (with the right girth for the horse) should not slide forward just doing work on the flat.

I say this as the owner of short backed Iberians. It can be a struggle, but I’ve managed to sort it. My 3 year old has everything working against him; bum high, wider in the barrel than in the shoulders, forward girth groove, and a short back. His current saddle does not slide forward.

I know you don’t want to, but I’d consider another fitter and probably another saddle. If you can get a good fitter, they might have some other suggestions to make it work depending on the issue.

[lorilu]

I have a Wolfgang Solo that I used for quite a few years on a Lusitano.
He had a forward girth groove and usually a WoW girth or anatomic girth would be the choice…. BUT like your guy he is also very well sprung behind the girth groove.
What finally worked for us was a crescent shaped girth. The rear side is longer than the front side so it fits that curve where the belly pushes out.
This girth is also working for my decidedly pear shaped PRE, altho I now rode in a Schlese Obrigado (the Solo put me in a chair seat…)
Mattes makes an expensive one. Ovation makes a $60 one. Ovation Gel Body Form Girth https://www.doversaddlery.com/ovation-gel-body-form-girth/p/X1-02194/?gad_source=1

[CanteringCarrot]

I have this girth too, works well on my 3 year old PRE that described above.

[RedHorses]

I had similar issues with my Hanoverian/Arab who had a very forward girth groove, and a well sprung barrel. At one point I had a small army of measures to keep the saddle in position. The ones that lasted through his ridden career included an offset girth (he liked the TSF StretchTec with neoprene liner), a point billet, crossing the billets (back billet in front buckle), and a crupper (though that was more habit than necessary after he had matured).

I also have a saddle fitter who listened to me and evaluated the adjustment on the ridden horse. I tell her what’s happening, she does the adjustment, and we both evaluate as I ride. She has had to do a couple of further tweak/evaluate the fit in one visit to get it right. She also guarantees it’s right, and has come back a few weeks later when I was having trouble again.

In your place the first thing I’d try is crossing the billets when girthing up. Have the point billet going straight down to the rear girth buckle, then cross the back billet over to the front buckle. If that helps you can consider an offset girth of some kind. If the shim helped, I’d keep using it for now.

[Bogey2]

now I am curious? Why would it not be “legal” to show in?

[Jackie_Cochran]

I am not totally familiar with the tack rules for dressage but if I remember correctly they specify an English saddle. If I am wrong I would like to know so I can tell other riders.

I do not ride or show in dressage so the current rules are not personally important to me. IF I did show dressage I would be interested if I could show in my now favorite developed-for-dressage-riding-and-training saddle.

ETA this type of saddle was developed specifically for the Iberian horses.