Testing out CSI pad and I noticed in this photo that my saddle seemed downhill. This is post ride.
Do you think I placed the saddle too far back, or that it is positioned correctly and needs to be shimmed?
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I think we would need more better pics to make good judgement calls, but from that I would say it’s in the right place, but probably too wide.
Saddle is definitely not too far back.
The saddle might be a little wide and if so, shims would help.
The saddle might be a good fit, but the horse’s back might just run downhill, in which case shims would not help and would just make the saddle too narrow for the horse.
I once read an article on saddle fit, written by a saddle maker, that talked about this. He said lots of horses have downhill backs and thus the saddle would sit downhill and it wasn’t a problem for the horse as long as the saddle fit properly. But, it’s not comfortable for the rider, so the saddle has to be built to both fit the horse and allow the rider to sit in a level seat.
I don’t know if that’s true or how that translates to finding a saddle that does that, but I thought it was interesting.
Saddle appears to be sitting in the right spot, so it is not too far back. However it is sitting downhill. Shim can work in the right situation, but do not work in every situation. Your bar angle has to be correct for shims to work.
If you can post pictures of the bare saddle on his back without a pad, that may help us help you.
Thanks for your comments, saddle fitting is such a bear!
The saddle seems to fit well when naked, when padded and when cinched, but seems downhill when mounted as this photo suggests. Maybe it is too wide, but I had a narrow version of same saddle and it seemed very tight on the sides, so I got this one with a teensy bit wider handhold (4.25" vs 4" and kept the same 93 bar angle.) He is a very stout horse.
I don’t cinch tight – I can slip my fingers under sternum – so I thought it might have slipped back, but I will give shims a try. And I will take more pics to see if I can pinpoint what is happening.
Interesting comments from @NoSuchPerson because it sure makes sense to me.
PS: almost had a wreck today using new wool fleece pad (T3 matrix) as the saddle slid off sideways and I bailed at point of no return, but held my saddle up and was rescued by a friend who could help uncinch – thankfully horse stood still and I didn’t have the saddle under his belly! (Fleece is out, not gonna risk that again…even if I cinch more tightly… and sadly, no photo)
Here is photo of him in a borrowed neoprene 3/4" pad – too small, but doesn’t look downhill to me. I will get some naked photos tomorrow.
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Okay, here are some naked photos.
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It appears to gap at bottom to me, which would imply “too wide,” although that bottom gapped edge is skirt rather than tree. But I can also see why some would say “too narrow”…
According to the Rod Nikkel website, a 4 1/4 handhold (this saddle) would generally equate to a 61/2" - 6 3/4" gullet width, and in general FQHB are 7" gullets. That would suggest this saddle is less than FQHB, but yet too wide? I see why you can’t compare sizes between saddles, lol!
I’m fascinated by this post. From the mounted picture it looks like the riders seat/weight are right over the horses lumbar spine. Is this where a western saddle is supposed to put the rider?
@jonem004 , does it look different that this?
I struggled with whether the saddle slipped back in that post ride photo (and a wide saddle will slip back – another thought that it might be a tad wide). You want the tree bars behind the shoulder, but the leather skirts can be over the shoulder.
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@BlueDrifter It’s really difficult to compare that illustration to your photo because of the different positions they are in. And I would argue that the neck and withers of the horse in that illustration are a little generous in comparison to the horses that most of us ride. That said, I’m not knowledgeable about western saddles and trees. So I’m absolutely unqualified to speak to where the bars are placed in relationship to the shoulder. It just looks from your photo that you are back over a softer spot on your horses back. I also don’t know anything about how western saddles distribute weight. I’d love to know where that drawing comes from. Looks super interesting!
Well, I will certainly take it into consideration!
The drawing is just from me googling “dressage position” and selecting from resulting images.
Today was a variety of opinions from experienced folks: too tight because it is too narrow, too tight because it is too wide, need shims, don’t need shims, and one vote for placed too far back (which would support your observation). All so frustrating.
Still, I also learned that new wool fleece pads are notoriously slippery and I should give it another try, and that the open cell foam “poron” used for impact protection in saddle pads is also used for shoe insoles and podiatry, and you can buy it by the sheet and cut your own!
In short, yes.
If you’re really interested in learning more about this, Rod Nikkel has a really good web site and blog you should check it out.
http://www.rodnikkel.com/content/
This directly addresses your question:
I’ll give that a read. I’d always taken it as gospel that the horses back closer to the withers was structurally stronger because my back is stronger higher up where my ribs tie in. Perhaps it’s different for horses? I’m not a bit above learning!
It’s always hard to tell without being there to “feel” the saddle yourself. Is there a tight spot on the shoulder? Based on the pictures, it looks like it would be tight in that location.
If anything, the bar angle might just be a smidge narrow. And/or you don’t have enough flare in the front for his shoulders. Of course, that’s getting nitpicky too. Either way, I am not so sure that shims would be a good option here.
How are the sweat patterns after you ride?
Based on the new pictures you posted, I think your HORSE is downhill. Is he? How old is he?
Hi @beau159!
Unmounted, I feel like it is firm, but not tight, I can slip hand under. But mounted and standing still, it feels tight and I can’t get fingers under. Mounted and walking – I feel like there is room, I can get my hand under and it isn’t pinched with each stride. And as I said before, when I check others’ western saddles when they are mounted, they feel tight, too.
Horse doesn’t seem to mind, not back sore, and sweat pattern is even. However horse is balky. He has been balky with other saddles, bareback, and other riders so I am not sure it is equipment related. The balkiness is getting better, but I want to make sure I am not giving him a reason and this is a new saddle. And now I have to buy a new pad, hence the shim question.
For this saddle maker, and for most that I read, a standard working QH in shape, fits in a 4/90. Four inch hand hold and 90 degree bars. I have a 4/93 from same saddle maker and it seemed “tight” so I ordered a 4.25/93. Making it a little wider at the gullet, but same bar angle. More like an english “hoop tree” design. Any wider and we would be going into what the saddle maker feels is draft territory.
He if fully mature, 12 yo, and does have big shoulders, left side moreso, and has a bit of weight due to all the rain we’ve been having.
I am going to try placing it a bit more forward today – Nikkel’s page says it will slip back to the right position. And I have some Thinline shims that I am going to play with and see what that looks like. I might just need a thicker pad that 3/4", to be more supportive of the entire saddle. I will see if anyone at the barn has something that compresses to more than 3/4"
Lastly, the Stubben rep is coming tomorrow because I wanted to look at their Scout model and sell my Genesis Haddad model. I will ask her opinion, too.
I can’t believe how varied the opinions can be, everyone’s experience of “fit” is so different…
I’m almost thinking wider handhold with 90° bars. Bars would be at a steeper angle, but further apart. Horse’s backs are usually steeper at the widest point. Just a thought. Rethinking mine too.
@Maude , thought of that, too… much to my chagrin. When I think of all the stacked tolerances of leather, horse muscling, saddle pads, etc… my head is spinning as to whether a slight change in tree actually manifests into the same change in the finished saddle.
Just in case anyone is still reading this thread, the Stubben rep said “too wide.” So I am going with the shim approach and try a thicker liner.
Thanks for the update! I was following this as I have a mare that is narrow but I had the same question regarding slipped back saddle or not!
I hope shims work for you! I think I’ll be needing those as well
To me the saddle looks pretty good. Slightly wide is always preferable to slightly narrow. My mare and i tried about 15 saddles. The only one she liked was slightly wide on her. Anything narrow pinched her shoulders and she was really witchy about that. She likes a 6 3/4 gullet. 7 inch was too wide. 6.5 looked correct but the bar angle was too tight on her. Add a thicker pad and i think you will be set.
pad material makes a difference. Anything cotton or polyester tends to smush down as the air leaves. Same with any synthetic foam pads. You want a material that holds its shape.
Well I did just that @4horses - got a 3/4" SPH pad last week and for the first time it seemed I could feel my horse under the saddle and the saddle seemed secure on him. Did it still feel tight as it always has? Yes, but the firmness of the pad seemed to help a lot in terms of slipping back. And the leg cutout was really noticeable for me to have more contact with his sides.
I had an SPH before with a different western saddle but that one was too short and I only used it a couple times before selling, so I didn’t try it with this saddle. Then I tried a thin 5Star (1/2") because I thought it too narrow/tight, but that didn’t seem supportive. Now I am thinking I should skip shims and order a 7/8" — or try my 3/4" with a blanket first. Does anyone use a 1" pad anymore?
I have a feeling I might be returning the CSI pad. I sure like the theory behind it, and the CSI Flexplate+1/2" liner is also 3/4" total thickness, but the saddle doesn’t feel as nestled in as it does on the SPH. I will give it another try and then get pics of the SPH.
And just for another input on whether it is too wide – I met “online” a rancher/colt starter who said it is a rare foundation ranch QH (like my guy is) that can fit in anything smaller than a 93 degree bar angle! Arrgh, lol.
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