Saddle value

[Cruisesmom]

Good morning.

I have a pretty simple to fit mare that I have been more than happy with our current saddle, wintec pro.

A friend is selling a Stubben Romanus. I am interested in trying and potentially buying it.There is a serial number of c1221328 on it with a 32 stamp that I assume is the tree width. How do I research the serial number?

It appears to be structally sound. The leather is quite faded and it looks to me that it needs to be reflocked.

What is the going rate for this saddle? Her asking price seemed high, so I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.

[Scribbler]

Email the company with the serial number. You can find head office in Europe on the internet.

For value, look on ebay and facebook sites for saddles of that brand and age and condition.

However, you also need to consider fit and structural integrity. Even if it is a cheap saddle, you really need to enlist an independent saddle fitter who can measure your horse’s back, see if the fit is a good basic match, and then do a reflocking.

The older Stubben saddles were incredibly hard wearing, and there are many from the 1970s and 1980s in circulation. Often people feel it isn’t worth reflocking such an old saddle, so continue to use them with rock hard flocking, which is not good.

Things to consider about an older saddle: do you like the balance it puts you in? Some older Stubbens have a reputation for pushing people into a chair seat. Also, how wide is the gullet channel down the spine? Newer saddles have a much wider channel, to give more clearance to the spine.

[Velvet]

I’ve never heard of old Stubbens pushing anyone into a chair seat. That simply happens from poor riding and not developing the correct muscles. Their saddles have always been well balanced. The old models just didn’t have giant thigh blocks so the rider had to work to balance and couldn’t be lazy.

[Lucassb]

Doing a quick search on sold listings on Ebay indicates prices from $295-500 or so.

[Inclined]

A Stubben Romanus is a fabulous saddle. The workmanship is excellent, and compared to some of the harder-seated Tristan models, it’s reasonably comfortable. However, it is going to feel completely different from the Wintec Pro - not better or worse, just different. If you’ve got a chance to try it out, I definitely would. The 32 is a wide tree in Stubben’s measurements, I believe. I just sold an older Romanus a few months ago for a couple hundred dollars because it had some wear, but it was still a structurally sound saddle. If you like the saddle, but the seller wants too much for it, you’d probably be able to find a better deal on ebay or elsewhere. It’s definitely a buyer’s market right now for older saddles.

[CrotchetyDQ]

I grew up riding in '80’s and '90’s era Stubbens, mostly the Romanus, when they were THE saddle to have. They were awful for me, and at least for someone with my conformation, did not allow me to ‘hang’ around the horse. This may partly be a function of the slapstick saddle fitting of the times, which was very much a one size fits all or a gel pad will fix it approach. They are hard as a rock, which is fine if it fits your build well, but for someone with a wide and tilted pelvis, short waist and loooong legs, they were a living hell. I was constantly fighting the balance and we used to joke about how if it burned to pee when you were done, you know you had a great ride. It was amazing how fast they disappeared from the barn after everyone sat in my late '90’s Custom Saddlery Olympic/Royal Star and no longer felt like they needed an emergency visit to the urologist after every lesson.

That said, I recently sat in a modern Stubben, and it resembles the old ones to look at, but feels VERY different. It was actually comfortable!

If you LOVE this one, and it’s a good price, go for it, but I would go sit in some other stuff at the tack shop first.

[Scribbler]

[QUOTE=Velvet;8860996]
I’ve never heard of old Stubbens pushing anyone into a chair seat. That simply happens from poor riding and not developing the correct muscles. Their saddles have always been well balanced. The old models just didn’t have giant thigh blocks so the rider had to work to balance and couldn’t be lazy.[/QUOTE]

Interesting. The “chair seat” problem is a common comment around here, where there are a lot of 1970s Stubbens still alive and in use. Perhaps it applies more to the jumping or AP saddles than to the dressage saddles. I understand it is a function of where the stirrup bars are hung relative to the deep point in the seat. I’m not sure I’ve seen a Stubben dressage saddle of that vintage, maybe because no-one out here was riding dressage in 1975, hence the locally-circulating immortal Stubbens are all jump or AP.

[Inclined]

[QUOTE=Scribbler;8861273]
Interesting. The “chair seat” problem is a common comment around here, where there are a lot of 1970s Stubbens still alive and in use. Perhaps it applies more to the jumping or AP saddles than to the dressage saddles. I understand it is a function of where the stirrup bars are hung relative to the deep point in the seat. I’m not sure I’ve seen a Stubben dressage saddle of that vintage, maybe because no-one out here was riding dressage in 1975, hence the locally-circulating immortal Stubbens are all jump or AP.[/QUOTE]

It’s the Siegfried models that I’ve heard this about most. It’s a very secure jumping/all purpose saddle that a lot of foxhunters still swear by, and “vintage” eventers, too (hey, I’m vintage, too). Personally, I don’t know that there’s a saddle that I enjoy riding in more (except maybe the same era Courbette/Kloster Schonthal Stylist) than a Siegfried. The VSD’s aren’t bad for lower level dressage, either.

[Scribbler]

[QUOTE=Inclined;8862075]
It’s the Siegfried models that I’ve heard this about most. It’s a very secure jumping/all purpose saddle that a lot of foxhunters still swear by, and “vintage” eventers, too (hey, I’m vintage, too). Personally, I don’t know that there’s a saddle that I enjoy riding in more (except maybe the same era Courbette/Kloster Schonthal Stylist) than a Siegfried. The VSD’s aren’t bad for lower level dressage, either.[/QUOTE]

that sounds right.

Realized too I was wrong about no antique dressage saddles being in circulation locally. There are lots, but they are Passiers from the 1960s and 1970s (rock hard, no knee rolls, very slippery, and beloved by my coach :)). so I guess people went Stubben for jumping, Passier for dressage, back then.

[ladyj79]

I have a wintec pro as the back up to my Albion. If you are happy with the wintec I wouldn’t buy the stubben.

You don’t need it and it’s not like it’s a particularly rare or amazing saddle, especially since it sounds like it’s overpriced.

[mvp]

OP, I have spent the last couple of years looking at and buying these old school Stubben dressage saddles.

Start with Lucassb’s price range. The 32 tree puts it at the top of her range. If it’s an 18 seat, that might put it a bit higher, The fading (the biggest problem with these saddles not cleaned with the right saddle soap) lowers the price, IMO. If it has gussetted panels, add even more… at least IMO. (I think the Stubben tree is great but it can be somewhat banana-shaped for modern horses; I find it easier to fit Stubben dressage saddles that have gusseted panels.) I’d also add a little bit of money for the right kind of billets-- whether you like long ones or a special configuration this saddle might have like a point billet with short billets. I wouldn’t be afraid of short billets in these saddles; the right length girth puts the buckles behind your knee. Also, short billets seem to help saddles stay more stable on a horse’s back.

After that, there were different models of Romanus saddles made… with half panels and no knee rolls, though perhaps a pad for the rider’s knee sewn into the covered flap; (a Spezial); with knee rolls that widened considerably lower down (known as an “H.P.”), or with the standard pencil knee rolls. I’m not sure any of these adds or subtracts from the price. But they will feel different. And the half-panel saddle will not fit the horse in the way the regular Romanus does.

You can PM me with pictures if you think that would be useful. I agree that a Romanus is a nicer saddle and more comfortable ride than a Tristan. But a black Tristan will be prettier than a faded Romanus.

[Velvet]

[QUOTE=Scribbler;8863243]
that sounds right.

Realized too I was wrong about no antique dressage saddles being in circulation locally. There are lots, but they are Passiers from the 1960s and 1970s (rock hard, no knee rolls, very slippery, and beloved by my coach :)). so I guess people went Stubben for jumping, Passier for dressage, back then.[/QUOTE]
Unless you loved the uber flat Tristan. Which I did. And on a very lofty mover. The previous comment someone wrote about rubbing your crotch raw was only if you sat on it. It was a good saddle for teaching riders to not arch their back and sit on their crotch!

[js]

I’d stick with your Wintec Pro and save your money. If you are wanting a leather saddle, save up for something that is newer and better condition.

If the saddle is older, faded and needs reflocking, (maybe needs new billets) you’ll be spending more on fixing it up, factor in the purchase price and see what you will actually be paying- will it be worth that? Look at what else you can purchase at that price.

[Velvet]

I disagree with the reflocking costing a lot of money. The older saddles can last 50 and more years. If the leather was taken care of (and many were back then) they will last forever–and don’t need repair. Rarely do I find ones that do need repair. Most were well taken care of the leather was thicker and much tougher. And new billets are not that much money. It’s still a lot less than a newer saddle, and will often last you a LOT longer. But, you really need to love riding in it before you buy it, as with any saddle.

[Cruisesmom]

Thank you everyone for the replies. I finally put the saddle on my mare and it just does not fit. Too low in the pommel and much too wide. My friend had a price tag of $600.00 on this saddle.

It honestly looks like it needs to be re-dyed and re-flocked to catch anyone’s interest in that price range. A lot of good info to pass her way. Thank you!

[Inclined]

[QUOTE=Cruisesmom;8864648]
Thank you everyone for the replies. I finally put the saddle on my mare and it just does not fit. Too low in the pommel and much too wide. My friend had a price tag of $600.00 on this saddle.

It honestly looks like it needs to be re-dyed and re-flocked to catch anyone’s interest in that price range. A lot of good info to pass her way. Thank you![/QUOTE]

A few years ago, she probably would not have had a problem selling it for that, but the used saddle market, especially for more vintage saddles, is as bad as I’ve ever seen it. She may want to hang onto it for a while longer if she’s set on that price - there’s no telling if or when things may improve.

[Scribbler]

[QUOTE=Cruisesmom;8864648]
Thank you everyone for the replies. I finally put the saddle on my mare and it just does not fit. Too low in the pommel and much too wide. My friend had a price tag of $600.00 on this saddle.

It honestly looks like it needs to be re-dyed and re-flocked to catch anyone’s interest in that price range. A lot of good info to pass her way. Thank you![/QUOTE]

It would not be smart for her to have it reflocked before she sells it. As is, a buyer can tell if the tree is a basic good match for the horse. Then they are going to want to have it reflocked anyways to perfect the fit on their own horse. She would be better off knocking $200 or $300 off the purchase price in recognition of it needing reflocking, and stating that in the ad (or whatever local cost of a saddle fitter reflocking and fitting would be).

As far as dyeing the leather, I wouldn’t trust the results of this and probably wouldn’t buy a saddle that I knew had been redyed. If it is a brown saddle, lots and lots of oil or conditioner could help even out the leather.

[mvp]

OP, I think $600 is too much for a faded Romanus. I would pay that for one that had been in the CryoFreeze. Romanuses (Romanii?) are beautiful saddles. And every once in a while, you can find a saddle that had not uncorked for decades. Personally, I want a virgin Perzival so that I can tend to the brown bridle leather the way I want and make it into a pretty color.

Also, a word to the wise: Check with Stubben before you have anyone reflock these. Apparently, reflocking these saddles and their spring tree is a bit of a speciality. I have seen more than one Stubben reflocked by a competent saddler (who worked on all saddles) that was “never the same” afterwards.

I wouldn’t buy a Stubben that had been reflocked without trying it on my horse and riding in it. Better to leave that project to the buyer.

[hut-ho78]

I have an older Romanus bought in 1991. It is too narrow in the gullet/channel for my current horse. It is in good shape. The dye did not last and and turned greenish so when it looked bad enough I used Kiwi black leather dye (same kind I used on the old black leather scratched combat boots coming back from the field prior to re-shining them) in the bottle. I’ve reapplied it a few times. You have to use it liberally and let it soak in and maybe use several coats or it looks awful. It has the added benefit of killing any mold spores that have burrowed deep into the leather which really helps in a humid climate. It looks amazing after a new dye job and the dye lasts for quite a while. I also sent my Stubben’s back to Stubben North America to be reflocked to factory specifications and have worked with local fitters. No problems if they fit the horse. I like the hard as rock seat and the spring tree makes all the difference in comfort. However, my friends all hate the hard as rock seats. I wish it fit my horse today. They do last forever. The old Romanus has a slightly wider gullet than some of the newer Stubben’s but not enough for some of today’s warmbloods. I think they have some more recent models that address that. They no longer service my area so that is a off putting.

[jonem004]

@Velvet

I’ve never heard of old Stubbens pushing anyone into a chair seat. That simply happens from poor riding and not developing the correct muscles. Their saddles have always been well balanced. The old models just didn’t have giant thigh blocks so the rider had to work to balance and couldn’t be lazy.

I’ve definitely heard of this, but it isn’t necessarily the balance of the saddle that is to blame. There are a couple of things that can contribute to this, and that you can watch out for. These older saddles tend to be narrow for today’s wider warmbloods. A MW or Wide tree from 1975 is probably built for a wider TB and the resulting tenting at the front of the saddle pushes the balance point further back and the rider into a chair seat. As noted above, flocking gets compressed on older saddles and as the cantle drops-chair seat.

But you could get a properly fit to your horses back 70’/80’s saddle and still be put a bit behind the motion because we’re fat now. Have you seen a shot of people on the streets in the 70’s? Even skinny people are fat compared to normal people back then. Those old saddles don’t have a plan for all those THIGHS we’re trying to cram into them. Thank goodness they tend to be flatter without the big thigh blocks or we’d be forced to face the truth!