Saddlebred KWPN?

[OneGrayPony]

I have been idly doing some searches for saddlebred crosses as I’m really enjoying my dressage mare, and I stumbled upon this fellow http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/majesteit whose sire is listed as saddlebred and dam as KWPN, and he is listed as KWPN.

I would have expected a saddlebred mare to possibly be approved by a WB stud book, but was surprised to see it the other way around. Has this been common? Or did I have it all wrong?

And no, my mare is older, so I’m not considering breeding, I just was idly thinking about the best WB I’d ever owned and what I would have gotten with that cross.

[Halt_Near_X]

KWPN registers harness horse types (Dutch Harness Horse) as well as riding horse types.

When I was researching my guy’s bloodlines (1/4 Saddlebred, 1/4 KWPN – from harness horse lines), I got the impression that Saddlebred is a pretty acceptable cross for the harness horses.

That might be what you are seeing.

Do you know if the dam is from riding horse or harness horse lines?

[Hopefully there are not too many glaring mistakes here… I’m definitely no expert, just recalling what I found when I looked up my guy’s lines.]

[Elles]

First for a while Hackney blood was used in carriagehorse breeding and after that for a while Saddlebred. http://edepot.wur.nl/14041
http://edepot.wur.nl/117718

[OneGrayPony]

I don’t know or understand much about the division of lines within the KWPN stud book (though I am certainly aware of the Dutch Harness Horse). Are the books really that divided?

[Anne]

Yes, the books really are that divided. There is a Gelders book, a harness horse book, and a riding horse book.

[OneGrayPony]

Thanks Anne. Do you know why they have retained the 3 types? I’m very curious!

[siegi_b]

Big difference between riding (jumping and dressage) and harness horses. The Gelders division is being kept alive by a group of breeders that don’t want to see this “all-purpose” type horse get swallowed up by the riding horse registry. You’re supposed to be able to work a Gelders horse in the field all day and then take it to a show in the evening. Harness horses are all about flashy trots while pulling a cart - think very high knee action - as well as vertical necks and not much movement through the back.

[Nootka]

Are there Gelders in the USA? Who?

[siegi_b]

They are few and far between… I have a Gelders mare, Natuur, who has her Preferent title because she has produced 3 or more Star quality offspring. Nattie Sue, as she is called around here, was born in 1995 and I retired her from breeding a couple of years ago. She doesn’t owe me a thing and will spend her remaining years at my place.

P.S: There are only around 25 Preferent mares in the US and I have two of them!!! Yes, I’m very proud of them!!

[Renae]

Besides Majesteit there is Zion JC who has Saddlebted on his dam side.

If you want to see some nice horses and interesting ideas in horse breeding get yourself to the KWPN Inspection at Windy Knoll in Ohio later this month. It is basically the Harness Horse inspection, and there still be additional non-KWPN classes for crossbreds that don’t meet their guidelines. You will see Harness Horses and Harness Horses crossed with Standardbreds, Hackney Horses and Saddlebreds as well as a few other assorted crosses (maybe Drafts or Haflingers).

The Harness Horse/Standardbred cross many of the Amish horse breeders are breeding is pretty much shaping into a new breed that best suits their needs for a buggy horse, but I do know someone who has gotten a couple as eventing prospects!

[siegi_b]

Renae - I was hoping you would chime in here regarding the harness horses… You’re our American expert on the subject as far as I’m concerned!

[quietann]

Renae – does anyone do Morgan crosses? (Just thinking that we already know that Morgans, Saddlebreds, and Standardbreds come from very similar bloodlines, and IMO Morgans have the toughness of the Saddlebreds and the “pretty” of the Saddlebreds… They get used for CDE a lot, etc. They are a bit smaller and heavier so maybe that’s a problem???)

[b]

Nootka: There are two KWPN-NA approved Gelders stallions in the USA: Ijsselmeer Ikepono (Lio Lomas Dutch Warmbloods) and Olivier (Imajica). Lio Lomas produces some horses that have a high enough % of Gelders blood that they could be registered as Gelders horses. Last year the highest scoring mare in the KWPN-NA stud book inspections was a Gelders mare: Faith Keur by Koss pref x Mary Jane ster by Fabricius pref Owner/Breeder: A.M. Smit, Bearberry Guest Ranch. I am not sure if they are breeding Gelders horses. I know that the mare was imported from the Netherlands. It would be nice if they direct her toward a breeding career. I am the only other breeder that I know of who is breeding Gelders horses. I own a Keur Gelders mare and have produced 4 Gelders foals from her. So far, each foal that I have taken to the inspection has been awarded first premium then awarded North American Champion. The foals have also been presented with the High Score Dressage ribbon at their inspection site for being the best dressage type foals at the keuring. I have 3 Gelders mares and this year have bred two of them to Dreamscape Farm’s stallion Freestyle, so their offspring are Gelders crosses. I have one Gelders filly this year. She is by the stallion Special D. Most often, I hear of breeders who have mares with Gelders blood but they are not bred to to Gelders stallions to produce Gelders foals. Breeders with Gelders horses seem to be few and far between. In the Netherlands, the Gelders horse was designated a rare breed.

www.facebook.com/HiltonHallSporthorses

[DownYonder]

While not a Saddlebred cross, Laura Graves’ horse Verdades has a damline that is basically KWPN Tuigpaard (Dutch Harness Horse). His dam has two crosses to the Hackney stallion Cambridge Cole within the first four generations.
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1615158?levels=6

[RacetrackReject]

Interesting. While not KWPN, we have a Holsteiner x Saddlebred in the barn. He was bred to be a dressage horse, and while he’s quite nice at that, lately he’s been learning about eventing. He can have that carriage look to him at times though, and has that higher leg movement, like Totilas, but obviously not the same quality.

He’s a beautiful horse, stunning actually, 17.2, dark dark bay with high whites, blaze face, and one blue eye. Anyway, I don’t believe Holsteiner a separate book like KWPN, so I’m guessing this gelding would just be considered grade? Is that correct?

[Renae]

[QUOTE=quietann;7750022]
Renae – does anyone do Morgan crosses? (Just thinking that we already know that Morgans, Saddlebreds, and Standardbreds come from very similar bloodlines, and IMO Morgans have the toughness of the Saddlebreds and the “pretty” of the Saddlebreds… They get used for CDE a lot, etc. They are a bit smaller and heavier so maybe that’s a problem???)[/QUOTE]

Yes, I have, but they are not as common.

[Renae]

[QUOTE=b;7750098]
Last year the highest scoring mare in the KWPN-NA stud book inspections was a Gelders mare: Faith Keur by Koss pref x Mary Jane ster by Fabricius pref Owner/Breeder: A.M. Smit, Bearberry Guest Ranch. [/QUOTE]

And side note that Fabricius is in the Harness Book with the KWPN and spent the last few years of his life in North America.

If a Harness Horse has high enough % Gelders blood the owner can request to present it for the Gelders book instead of the Harness book, and I know that has happened in North America.

[Renae]

[QUOTE=Nootka;7749438]
Are there Gelders in the USA? Who?[/QUOTE]

There are two approved Gelders stallions in the US, Ijsselmeer Ikepono (87.5% Gelders) and Olivier (34% Gelders).

There are many Harness stallions in North America these days, most of their owners are Amish. Some have been bred here and some imported. Some of the imported ones were approved in the Netherlands, but their current owners aren’t involved with the KWPN so don’t keep them activated as KWPN stallions (For example the owners of Majesteit and Harmonie aren’t involved with the KWPN-NA). The approved/licensed Harness Horse stallions in NA that are currently activated with the KWPN are:
Baanbreker HBC (84% Gelders, 16% Hackney Horse)
Barno (78% Gelders, 22% Hackney Horse)
C E.Z. Warrior (94% Gelders, 6% Hackney Horse)
Colonist (75% Gelders, 25% Hackney Horse)
Gelviro (75% Gelders, 25% Hackney Horse)
Horal (87.5% Gelders, 12.5% Hackney Horse)
Jonker (75% Gelders, 25% Hackney Horse)
Moneymaker (50% Gelders, 50% Hackney Horse)
Ulandro (87.5% Gelders, 12.5% Hackney Horse)
Vaandrager HBC (81% Gelders, 19% Hackney Horse)
Waldemar (75% Gelders, 25% Hackney Horse)*
Whiskei (78% Gelders, 22% Hackney Horse)
Zion-JC (65.5% Gelders , 22% Hackney Horse, 12.5% Saddlebred)

*I managed a farm where Harness Horses were bred. One of the broodmares was Etinkie keur preferent prestatie. Siegi said how rare preferent mares are, prestatie mares are like geese that lay golden eggs! She is the great-granddam of Waldemar. In Holland she was the dam of two National Champions, Loverboy and Itinkie V. She had a couple Half-Arabian foals when she was first imported to North America. One of them I put through a sale as a two year old and she was purchased by an amateur who has trained her herself and has won several National Top Tens in dressage at the Arabian shows, which is not surprising as Etinkie’s full brother was a Grand Prix dressage horse. I bred her 2 times, once to the Saddlebred stallion Castle Bravo and to Moneymaker. Both of the foals were born late in the summer and too young to bring to the keuring as foals, but both as Yearlings were NA Champion Harness Horse Yearling. After she was sold I know she had at least one more foal, by Whiskei, who has also found a home as a dressage horse http://www.erinsheadressage.com/training/horses/foster-rw/

[red_mares]

[QUOTE=quietann;7750022]
Renae – does anyone do Morgan crosses? (Just thinking that we already know that Morgans, Saddlebreds, and Standardbreds come from very similar bloodlines, and IMO Morgans have the toughness of the Saddlebreds and the “pretty” of the Saddlebreds… They get used for CDE a lot, etc. They are a bit smaller and heavier so maybe that’s a problem???)[/QUOTE]

I know a few (Amish) guys who are breeding Morgans. A more common cross is Dutch/Hackney Pony. The smaller isn’t a big problem, but the Amish like flash and generally Hackneys have more than Morgans. Indiana & Ohio are flat enough that ponies are pretty popular.

I have talked to several who won’t breed to saddlebreds anymore because they don’t have the bone, the toughness, or trot they used to.