So I had a trainer who highly recommended Stubben for their spring-tree technology. I have a pretty hard to fit horse who previously rode in an Albion dressage saddle which actually fit him fairly well. He’s not that wide at the wither but his back is short and very flat-basically tube shaped below the wither.
I tried the Zaria, Phoenix, Ascend, and Portos, my horses seem to be okay and didn’t show any signs of discomfort(if there’s anything slightly uncomfortable he would show tightness in the back), but I can’t seem to find my leg position in the right position? Anyone had this situation with Stubben saddles? In the Zaria it’s just swinging back and forth, and in the Phoenix the canter was okay but in the trot I looked like I was riding a bike with circling motions of my ankles every time I post.
Has anyone had experience with Albion jump saddles? I sat in one which was too wide for my horse so I ended up selling it, but even with the one size up with the seat and the width(shimmed with a half pad) my legs were dead still with posting. It just seemed to make more sense to get one of those with the right size. Anyone had any experience with customized Albion Jump saddles?
Looking forward for your input!!
All I can say is keep looking until you find “the one.” It’s really incredible what damage an ill-fitting saddle will do to a horse and how it affects the rider.
I tried a Stubben Roxanne on my moderately curvy mare and it was way too curvy, it rocked around.
We have better luck with Passier and County.
Most brands have one tree shape and it it doesn’t fit your horse, you can’t use any model in that brand. If the saddle doesn’t fit your seat will be off. My guess is that many rider fit problems are actually horse fit problems.
If the Albion tree fits your horse stick with that brand. doesn’t matter what your trainer says. Trainer is not a saddle fitter and often they have some odd ideas.
Most Albions are on a spring tree, so you are good there. If your horse like’s your dressage saddle and your are more comfortable in their jump saddles than Stubbens, I would go with the Albion. Where are you located? I could most likely point you in the direction of a good albion fitter.
I’m in central VA-unfortunately most of the Albion fitters seem to be out west or in PA? I had a MW Albion K2 but it seemed SO WIDE on him, I used a half pad and still wasn’t quite enough. Do you know if they usually just run on the wider side?
Well Hastilow is in your area a lot and they carry Albions. Otherwise I think Ann Crowley I know used to sell Albions.
Must disagree with this statement. I am aware of multiple brands that build saddles on different trees - I know for sure Black Country and Thorowgood do, pretty sure both County and Stubben do as well. I would hate to make the same mistake of overgeneralization, but I think most UK based saddle makers offer multiple trees, and the oh so popular French brands are less likely to do so.
Anne Crowell from Pegasus saddlery comes down this way. She sponsors Jontelle Forbus And has fit saddles for me. (Charlottesville) so she should be able to help you out.
The number of trees is really depended on the company. I do not sell Albions, so I can not comment on how many trees they have for their models. However, I am pretty sure they are one of the few companies with their own tree shop still.
I personally really hate that mentality that one brand is better than another or one model is better than others. In reality there is a time and place for everything. Of course i have my favorites, but that does not mean that the other saddles are “bad.” It really comes down to what works for your horse, budget and you.
Yes, there are some brands that offer several trees, and may state that they have regular, draft, cob, etc. If they do so, then that is prominently posted on the website as it is a huge selling feature and is part of the ordering process.
As far as I am aware, Stubben, Passier, and County do not do so. They may have different trees, for instance fibreglass versus wood, in different models. But they do not have a specific “curvy tree,” “flat tree,” etc. If I am wrong, I would be happy to see the links to the web pages that discuss their tree options.
This is the huge problem in buying a custom saddle. If the back to front curve and the drape of the tree are not a good fit for your horse, then no amount of flocking can really change this. Obviously most brands have narrow, medium, and wide gullets. Some brands also carry a hoop tree, and yes, those fit very differently than the regular trees. But by and large, the “curviness” of the tree remains the same through all the models of that brand.
My mare does very well in Passier and to a certain extent County. There are lots of other brands that either bridge on her, or are obviously too curvy.
After doing some research on County and not finding a definitive answer, I emailed through the US web site and got the following response:
“Most of our saddle models have their own specific tree design to accommodate the rest of the saddle’s features (flap, panel, etc.). It is always advised to complete a fitting with your representative so you know which tree works best for your horse on each specific model. This is to say that just because your horse is in a medium Sensation doesn’t mean that he/she will be in a medium Perfection.”
Not definitive, but here is a link to an anecdotal blog post which refers to the County Innovation tree being more flared at the ends as opposed to the Solution. I’m guessing the flare being referred to may be at the end of the tree points in the head plate.
https://eventingnation.com/the-saddle-fitting-saga-continues/
Well that blog post is way too complicated and discursive and narrative-based for me to read it through 
The reply you cite from County only refers to the width of the wither gullet. There may be some variation between trees in their models, but clearly they aren’t able to say: Tree A is for a moderately curvey TB type with higher withers, Tree B is for a flat backed cob, Tree C is for a horse with some sagging or atrophy. Etc.
I harp on all this because the back to forward curve of the saddle and the drape of the panels are two dimensions that customers often have never considered. Everyone knows about wither clearance, but not everyone knows about the back to front curve.
I have certainly seen saddle reps promise that they can fit their brand of saddle to any horse, when it is clearly impossible, and I have seen people spend $5000 on a semi custom saddle that bridges and will always bridge on that horse.
In contrast, if you go to an artisan handmade western saddle maker, he will arrive at your barn with a selection of 10 or 20 trees. He will fit the tree to the horse for curve and drape as well as wither clearance, and then build the saddle from scratch out of sheets of leather. None of the big English saddle makers offer this kind of true custom build.
So for English saddles, it has been my experience that everyone needs to find the brand or brands that are the best approximation to their horse’s body type, and stick with those.
My saddle fitter provides me with back tracings so I can go to the consignment store and figure out which saddles are a good match, and not even bother taking the wrong ones on trial. I took those tracings to a consignment service that specializes in high end used French saddles, and basically none of those brands (CWD, Voltaire, etc) were going to be a good fit, according to the service and to my own examination of the saddles. Whereas Passier saddles in general are a good fit for my horse.
Humans have similar issues with brands of jeans or brands of shoes. I cannot wear Nike runners or Birkenstock shoes; they are overstructured for my feet and cause immediate pain. Likewise even back when I was younger and somewhat slimmer, there were brands of jeans that worked for me and brands that never did. Likewise with breeches and with riding helmets: some brands of helmets tend round, some tend oval.
And same with saddles. Except for the brands that make a point of having a cob tree or a draft tree or a hoop tree or an Arabian tree, each brand tends to have saddles that fit similarly in terms of curve and drape, with the only real variable being wither width.
This is something that independent saddle fitters know and will tell you. Saddle reps, not so much.
It was not particularly well (or badly) written, but the gist of it was that when the author and a friend spent a day with a County rep, they found that different shaped horses went better or worse in different models of County saddles. This anecdotally says to me that all the saddles were probably not built on the same tree.
They may not be able to say that, or they may choose not to say that because they would rather folks work with a County fitter to make that determination. I have also heard that custom saddle makers (Black Country specifically) will create a custom saddle based on combinations of features from different models e.g. the horse seems to like one model but the rider prefers the seat/twist/flap of another so the company builds the saddle to the customers specs, and it becomes a hybrid of both models. That would also be a valid reason on the part of the maker to not overly generalize or publicize a given model as suited to certain horse types.
Also to be precise, the reference to the flare would be referring to the tree points and not the wither gullet - which can be different. I have a Black Country event saddle that has wither gussets - it’s wither gullet shape would be very different without the gussets, but the shape and width of it’s tree points would be exactly the same.
No argument on this point from me, and even for people who know to consider these additional dimensions of fit, it can be hard to see and feel the differences. It’s why saddle fitting is more of an art than a science.
This is the main sticking point which is keeping me coming back for further discussion. It’s not necessarily a BRAND thing. If someone searching for a saddle limits themselves to one brand because they are looking for wool vs foam or some other feature that is 100% consistent within the brand, that’s one thing. But it’s doing a disservice to all the saddle searchers out there to promulgate the idea that just because one County or Black Country saddle did not fit a horse, others won’t either.
I am sure there are some brands that have little to no variation in the trees used such that the brand probably can effectively be ruled out for certain horse body types - especially among the common off the shelf brands. However, among the brands that do a lot of customization of their basic models, a shopper might be unnecessarily limiting themselves by ruling out the entire brand.
Again, I think this is an overgeneralization (and you gave some good examples of exceptions yourself). Some recent Pessoa off the shelf models have offered a choice of either Alto panels (advertised as better for TB types) or Corto panels (better for flatter backs). I tried one with Alto panels on my TB, and it didn’t work at all as shape front to back was too flat - but that’s an example of where drape was different for the same brand and model of saddle.
@Scribbler, I respect that you have put yourself through ammie saddle fitting “school” and have gained much knowledge which you are sharing in good faith. I don’t disagree with much of what you have posted or your analogies, but I am holding firm on the point that for some brands, one saddle model may not work for a given horse and another model of the same brand might. I won’t be back to discuss any more today as I have spent far too much time on saddle schtuff.
OP, here is an example of an Albion saddle which seems to come in a couple of different tree shapes.
https://www.albionengland.co.uk/product/albion-k2-jump-saddle/
I trialed an Albion not too long ago, and while my trainer nixed it in a “pre-saddle fitter assessment”, I loved sitting in it. I am on the other side of the country from you, but the local Albion fitter has a great eye - not sure if that would translate to other reps or not.
As I said, yes some brands have specific different trees and advertise that.
I would be happy to see any links to websites where the brands explain the difference in tree shape and horse type. I am always happy to learn things or be corrected.
You can’t buy a new high end saddle except through a rep, so advertising that the brand has a hoop tree or a draft tree or whatever could only be a selling point, and could only drive buyers to a rep. It’s not like you can buy new County saddles in a tack shop.
In the absence of a brand advertising they have different trees for different type horses, I am going to have to assume that they don’t, and that the difference between the trees in that brand are fairly minimal.
If anyone has links to clear company information from the high end brands about having different shapes I’d love to see it as I’d find that useful and interetesting.
Most customization for most English saddles is for the rider.
+1 to everyone else’s advice - go with what fits your horse, not what your trainer thinks is better because chances are they’re getting a kickback from the saddle maker. I’m also not totally impressed with Stubben’s sales reps as they aren’t usually officially trained/certified in saddle fitting, whereas others like County, Hastilow, Albion, etc. are required to go through training/certification. Or just use an independent fitter. 
Re Training on reps for specific brands of saddles - it think really depends on the area. Here in Area 1 we have a great Stubben rep - Megan Gardiner. She does not just push the high end custom saddles but actually measures horses and watches the riders in the saddle to make recommendations. We have also had well educated Devacoux reps as well. Our students dont just ride in one brand of saddle - they ride in what works for them, their horse and their budget. These reps have never had a problem w that.
Sometimes, a rep has saddle fitting training before they become a rep, or may even be an independent saddle fitter before they decide to add on a line of saddles. That’s great. And a properly trained saddle fitter with a van full of consignment saddles plus being rep for a semi-custom high end line would be an excellent resource.
But folks also get hired as reps who only do the brief in-house saddle fitting training workshops required by the company. And these reps tend to drink the koolaid of whatever company they work for. These are the kinds of reps I’ve seen make very bad fitting decisions on other people’s horses, or say that they can make a given saddle fit any horse. They can’t.
There also tends to be a fair amount of turnover in saddle reps.
I probably have a lot of thoughts that could jump into the general discussion of different brands and their type of tree, but at this point, I’m going to address the question about Albions.
Albion has several different trees – the K2 trees, both dressage and jump run wide. So a MW fits like a W in many brands. The SLK trees run narrow, so the trees fit a size narrower than what you would expect as “normal” (as if there is any such thing as “normal” in saddle fitting :lol:)
If the general shape of the tree, and the balance of the saddle work for you and your horse, try a different one in a different size.
My fairly wide no withers horse had a MW in a K2 and an XW in an SLK, both of which fit like you would expect a “wide” to fit. My TB with withers, but who was still wider than a normal M took a M in the K2 and a W in the SLK.
Stubbens have a tree that is more curvy back to front, and also have a keyhole shaped tree in front – so even on my curvy backed horse, the Stubben didn’t fit, because the tree points were too long and dug into her shoulders in front.
Seriously, the factors that make saddles work or not are legion and will give you a headache. If you can find an independent fitter who isn’t a rep, that’s who I’d work with.
Good luck – I despise saddle shopping myself!
Libby
(who is hoping that this time my new horse will fit the saddles I already have and not require new ones. But that isn’t likely, is it?)
