Saddles: deep seat critique

[eightpondfarm]

This was on facebook yesterday. I happen to only like flat saddles. So it was a pleasure for me to read this

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Science Of Motion ](https://www.facebook.com/scienceofmotion?cft[0]=AZVOttokcqvvivkcgelufC2INc3kCZ70lIf5WfmenNtMwOyQWE54DR_bOuH4-rYM9t5aYqczBoVDHWfYG_YdS4Cx7jJ2zo_ZPp_iLW0ONRYE1JwXmBVo8wkHZLSbSTxYFwth7_5n41JPA9cHEjFGkjjNYnFBufhOd2dWnz5CK66wUkjZpHNcOI-8yi5EKYKUkvc&tn=-UC%2CP-R)

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Tensegrity Butt

Yesterday, Elizabeth Uhl, DVM, Ph.D., Dip, ACVP, (Betsy,) and I were discussing an experiment that would show how the verticality of the rider’s body on the saddle affects vibration. I observed the relation by experience that a vertical alignment of our physique allows efficient control and use of vibrations. Leaning backward or leaning forward affects our ability to master and absorb vibrations. Decades ago, I did not even try to talk about the subject. Physiotherapists acted as if they were fully aware of the subject but could not provide scientific facts. Body awareness people showed the same confident certitude but nothing beyond their talk. Veterinarians rejected the possible influence and control. Today’s knowledge demonstrates the positive and negative effects of vibration and accepts that it could affect the rider’s and horse’s physique.

I had an idea about an experiment, and Betsy is interested in thinking about it. Meanwhile, Betsy sends me an interesting study telling me you will like the title, “Tensegrity Butt.” As you know, I believe that deep seat, high cantle saddles alter proper toning of our muscles directly in contact with the saddle, Our gluteus maximus, upper thighs, psoas, and low abdominal and back muscles. I have observed by experience that proper toning of our muscles in contact with the saddle created adequate tensegrity of our whole physique. By contrast, the slackness of the glutes and upper thigh muscles created by high cantle and large thigh block saddles affected the tone of the riders’ whole physique. I was delighted to read, “Muscle, buttocks, viscera, and the boundary conditions of buttocks have influence on the vertical resonant frequency of spine. Muscle played a very important role in biodynamic response of spine. Compared with the vertical posture, the posture of lean forward or backward led to an increase in stress on anterior or lateral posterior of lumbar intervertebral discs. This indicated that keeping correct posture could reduce the injury of vibration on lumbar intervertebral disc under whole‐body vibration.” (Rui-Chun Dong, Li-Xin Guo. Human body modeling method to simulate the biodynamic characteristics of spine in vivo with different sitting postures.)

The study was made on car and truck drivers and observed that the fatigue level was reduced to about 10% when the body was in a straight vertical position. Riding is a different condition but with analogies. The study adds factual documentation and measurements to observations made by experience. This led me to create the neutral seat and ride in a saddle that does not alter the tone of my gluteus maximus, upper thighs, psoas, and low abdominal and back muscles.

Jean Luc

[Mander]

I didn’t read through the entire thing, but there are some threads on Jean Luc in here - he is well known for shilling his own brand of koolaid. I’m sure he gets some things right, but I would still take what he says with a grain of salt. He is also a rep for the Macel saddle he’s trying to sell (although he does try to conceal that somewhat) and basically insists that it’s the only saddle in the whole world that will ever work for any horse.

[eightpondfarm]

i just ‘discovered’ him this morning…lol. Because i’ve been searching for just the right saddle. Still looking for saddle, but i won’t be buying one online, custom or not. I need to sit in the exact saddle before buying. And, i don’t trust saddle makers, hundreds if not thousands of miles away to make it right. I will try before i buy. But just finding a flat enough saddle to even consider has been challenging. And this guy, this post, was kinda music to my ears. I don’t know WHY i like flat, i think because i grew up saddleseat and have ridden so many horses/so many years bareback… anyhoo. His post made sense because it made sense AND because of my bias.

[Mander]

If you know what works for you, all the more power to you! Good luck on you saddle search!

[Scribbler]

You can ride correctly or incorrectly in any saddle that fits you. Older riders who grew up in “pancake saddle” days may feel more comfortable in more open saddles.

One of the things about dressage saddles is that they have gotten bigger and more blocked in as horses have gotten taller and with bigger strides. There are WB out there where the average rider would need to develop a whole other set of muscles to even post the trot let alone sit it. Add some athletic spooks in, and many riders appreciate the feeling of security. I’m a flatter saddle person but I’m also not riding horses that push the limits of human endurance.

So Jean Luc is looking at a posture study done on truck drivers. It’s absolutely true that sitting upright especially with an ergonomic seat cushion helps back pain and fatigue enormously. I just got an Orvis contraption for my car and fixed a chronic back issue.

However Jean Luc is extrapolating to saying deep seat saddles are correlated with leaning forwards or back and losing butt integrity. I don’t think there’s any research on this. Also I don’t know what he means exactly. I put on a jump saddle and ride two point trot sets and that sure works the glutes! I am also going to guess the JL does not have access to the most effective or fit riders these days to draw his conclusions.

[eightpondfarm]

i’m just used to having full-access?.. to moving all my body parts more, maybe that’s my deal. dunno know.

Truck drivers huh…well
I don’t know this guy, i think? my coach has taken his seminars when he comes here…? but i do know that when i sit in a bucket seat, i’m weirded-out. Even in my truck, i put a sheep’s fleece into that bucket to level it out. Maybe i suffer from butt claustrophobia? lol

[Scribbler]

@eightpondfarm

i’m just used to having full-access?.. to moving all my body parts more, maybe that’s my deal. dunno know.

Truck drivers huh…well
I don’t know this guy, i think? my coach has taken his seminars when he comes here…? but i do know that when i sit in a bucket seat, i’m weirded-out. Even in my truck, i put a sheep’s fleece into that bucket to level it out. Maybe i suffer from butt claustrophobia? lol

A bucket seat in a chair or car is not the same as a high cantle on a saddle.

[eightpondfarm]

the feeling of restraint is something they have in common. High cantle, thigh blocks…i see a similarity.

[sascha]

There are SO many red flags in that jibberish, but the one that stuck out to me the most was about the gluteus maximus. No, just no. I am way too lazy to go upstairs and go through my library to find the appropriate riding anatomy books to quote from, so here’s a link that may help you to understand why that is such a huge red flag:

Which Muscles Should you use for Riding? - Amelia Newcomb Dressage

@eightpondfarm

Even in my truck, i put a sheep’s fleece into that bucket to level it out. Maybe i suffer from butt claustrophobia? lol

Vehicle seats are terrible, absolutely terrible. They put the pelvis below the knees, tipping the pelvis back into slouching position, and depending on length of thigh, can chop off support mid-hamstrings. First thing I do in a new vehicle is tilt the seat as much as possible (that adjustment is available in most modern vehicles) so that the back of the sitting area becomes closer to level with the front of the sitting area.

The side to side thing doesn’t really equate to thigh blocks at all, but may relate to whether your legs are naturally outward turning, neutral or inwards turning. Born as a club-footed person, the sides don’t bother me one bit, but I can see how they might drive someone with more naturally turned out legs clear around the bend!

[Willesdon]

It is still possible to find flat seat dressage saddles because you are not alone: many people dislike being plugged into a seat.

[Warmblood1]

I really don’t trust JLC to be unbiased when it comes to saddles. This feels to me like him using someone else’s credentials to create a “theory” that supports the purchasing on his own saddles. I say this because he has used other author’s work to support his ideas without even crediting him, yet here he using Dr. Uhl’s credentials front and center. JMHO.

[sheltona01]

It doesn’t matter if the seat is deep or not, but if it fits you. You can have a flat as a pancake saddle not fit you and cause issues too. If it doesn’t fit, yes it will cause issues. You will just notice it more in a deep seated saddle.

[BrownDerby]

The saddle pictured is almost a clone of an older Passier. You might look into those. Inexpensive nowadays and the wool can be re-done.

[eightpondfarm]

yes, i do actually know this through personal experience.

[outerbanks77]

Just yesterday I was admiring a (different) video of Jeremy Steinberg schooling and remembered he was in a deep saddle with large blocks.

Witness his lack of verticality and muscle tensegrity! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT8NcXjza0Q

Sitting in a deep saddle is nothing the same as sitting in a deep car bucket seat. I mean, if you don’t like it, don’t ride in one, but not reason to try to grasp at random unrelated studies to provide a backing for your choice. I am always puzzled by the need to “move around” in the saddle since the goal of dressage is to minimalize the aids and sit very quietly in balance.

[K_VanOlst]

@Scribbler

I just got an Orvis contraption for my car and fixed a chronic back issue.

Not to derail the thread but I can’t seem to PM you - do you have a link? Very curious about one of these and Google is failing me

[Scribbler]

@K_VanOlst

@Scribbler

I just got an Orvis contraption for my car and fixed a chronic back issue.

Not to derail the thread but I can’t seem to PM you - do you have a link? Very curious about one of these and Google is failing me

Ha I got the name wrong. The company is Orbus or Orbus Form. Here’s the back rest. I also got a cushion. I remembered it as Orvis which is fishing supplies.

ObusForme Wideback Backrest Support – Wide Padded Seat Cushion and Lumbar...

People have these on office chairs too.

[BigMama1]

@Willesdon

It is still possible to find flat seat dressage saddles because you are not alone: many people dislike being plugged into a seat.

It’s also quite possible to have a deep seat and large supportive thigh blocks without being “locked in” to place, assuming the saddle fits the rider correctly.

I don’t get the sense of superiority some have because of their own personal preferences. Why can’t everyone just ride in whatever style they like best without being judged for it?

A bad rider is a bad rider in any saddle. A good rider is a good rider in any saddle. A deep seated saddle isn’t going to magically make a bad rider good. How I wish it did though!

[cnm161]

@BigMama1

I don’t get the sense of superiority some have because of their own personal preferences. Why can’t everyone just ride in whatever style they like best without being judged for it?

A bad rider is a bad rider in any saddle. A good rider is a good rider in any saddle. A deep seated saddle isn’t going to magically make a bad rider good. How I wish it did though!

Preach. This sport is hard enough without erecting artificial barriers on what is and is not true dressage.

[Scribbler]

@cnm161

@BigMama1

I don’t get the sense of superiority some have because of their own personal preferences. Why can’t everyone just ride in whatever style they like best without being judged for it?

A bad rider is a bad rider in any saddle. A good rider is a good rider in any saddle. A deep seated saddle isn’t going to magically make a bad rider good. How I wish it did though!

Preach. This sport is hard enough without erecting artificial barriers on what is and is not true dressage.

The thing about saddles is so much goes into the fit for both rider and horse. It’s true dressage saddles got very puffy over the past 2 decades. It’s also likely true that a lot of intermediate adult riders get sold more saddle and indeed more horse than they actually need, and hit the limitations of their own fitness and courage. Some riders that I see absolutely do brace on the thigh blocks and put their entire weight on the reins. They complain of sore arms and hands after a lesson. I can’t imagine it, but there’s way more going wrong here than poofy knee blocks.