Saddles - Not what they used to be

[Inclined]

[QUOTE=Scribbler;8988534]

IME, the people who really have trouble finding an English saddle are those with wide and low-withered smaller stock horses, or with Iberian horses. [/QUOTE]

As the owner of one of these smaller stock horses (a vertically challenged QH/draft cross), I agree completely. It has been nearly impossible to find one that fits my gelding adequately, even one with an adjustable tree. The one he likes best is a 30+ year old AP saddle built like the old Passier jumping saddles. What I find hard to understand is why more companies don’t make saddles to fit the “American Baroque” breeds, especially when many women my age (middle age and up) are riding shorter, wider equines. There’s definitely a market for them, and often disposable income as well.

[PaulaM]

I don’t think it is necessarily bad saddles or bad trees, I believe if we truly looked back, the issue did occur then, but people were more oblivious to the fact that the saddles really didn’t fit as well as they should.

In general, we have become more educated with regards to this. It is just like drunk driving, it has happened for many decades but our awareness has increased so we are more likely to do something about it then we would in the past.

[Bogie]

I also think that how easy it is to find a saddle that fits depends on how good your saddle fitter is :). If you can get educated about the right panel configuration for your horse and have a wool flocked saddle, there’s a lot that can be done with reflocking and/or adjusting the tree.

I bought a saddle recently knowing that I would ask my fitter to widen it about half a size because I knew it was the right shape for my horse’s back.

I think that a lot of fitters would prefer to sell you a saddle than fit the saddle you already have. I have certainly had saddles that my horses grew out of when they matured/changed shape but there was a lot that could be done before I had to sell the saddles.

I concur that the WOW saddles seem to have infinite variability. I owned one for awhile and my horse just didn’t like the FLAIR panels but I thought the saddle was pretty comfortable and modular.

[Velvet]

My frustration stems from saddles like even Passier not offering all widths and the assumption that all horses should have a wide gullet, apparently.

[Scribbler]

http://www.passier.com/fileadmin/downloads/Wissenswertes/Englisch/Passier_FAQs_en_aktiv.pdf

[Bogie]

You need a fitter who can help you adjust a saddle to fit your horse.

[Velvet]

:sigh: Yeah, not the right answer. The issue is the manufacturers. Maybe you guys are not having horses outside their norm. Maybe the problem is you are not outside the norm (long femur). It’s not about a great saddlefitter, it’s about finding saddles that are so similar (because things are POPULAR rather than that they offer the options and CORRECT fit for everyone) you have no options other than maybe to find an old saddle, contact a saddlemaster and have them refit it all.

I’m done. I was pointing out the obvious after shopping for years. You can disagree, but your solutions are not ones that have not been employed, and many show that a lot of you don’t understand that they truly have changed all designs and not always to fit everyone nor every horse. They are going for what is popular. Just look at a lot of riders and horses in the wrong saddles, even with a fitter. They are making the best of what is out there.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

Personally, I struggle more with finding a good fitter who can come to my area when I need them. Second, I have a really hard time spending 5k on a new saddle for each horse.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

Since I can’t edit (grr). I will add I agree with Velvet in that we used to use a saddle on a lot of horses and not have an issue. While you can argue people have gotten more sophisticated about understanding saddle fit, the horses moved forward freely and did their job. I’m having more issues with moving forward freely today with saddle fitting today–particularly with adjustable tree models. So something has changed imo, but I haven’t studied it enough to figure out what…

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

And I’m so sorry about my bad grammar and spelling. Why is edit not working?!

[Inclined]

I think what Velvet is trying to say is that yes, there are a lot of options, but most of them are variations on the same theme. I was reminded of this while shopping for clothes the other day. In the days of the vintage saddles, clothing seemed to be more adaptable, too. (Yes, skinny jeans look nice with tall boots, but not on my middle aged body.) Today, there’s a “look” in clothing, and to a certain extent in saddles, too, and if that look doesn’t work for you (or your horse), you have to go back to the older styles or wait for current trends to change. Yes, there are some exceptions, but they can be hard to find.

[Mondo]

I too have a long femur (I’m 5’7" and my legs are as long as my 6’1" sons!) There are more adjustable trees than those you mentioned, although I will say that the Bates Innova is a really good saddle, don’t discount it until you’ve ridden in it. I had one and loved it. I also had a Rembrandt (they don’t make them anymore I’m afraid) with an adjustable tree and that was an excellent saddle.

Circuit, Tolouse, Ovation, Pessoa, Collegiate, Wow (heard great things about these but no first hand experience) Classic, Hastilow, and Kent & Masters all make saddles with adjustable trees.

I understand your frustration, Velvet. Saddle fitting has to be the worst sometimes. Coupled with the ever changing topline and rider position in dressage as you move up the levels, it can seem hopeless. Hang in there. Don’t be too hard on the manufacturers. Saddles are like shoes. You have to try on dozens of them before you find the perfect one. Good luck!

[Velvet]

Thank you, Inclined!!! That pretty much sums it up! (Wish I could have quoted our reply, but alas, that feature is still not working for me, along with the edit feature. )

[quietann]

[QUOTE=Inclined;8988669]
As the owner of one of these smaller stock horses, I agree completely. It has been nearly impossible to find one that fits my gelding adequately, even one with an adjustable tree. The one he likes best is a 30+ year old AP saddle built like the old Passier jumping saddles. What I find hard to understand is why more companies don’t make saddles to fit the “American Baroque” breeds, especially when many women my age (middle age and up) are riding shorter, wider equines. There’s definitely a market for them, and often disposable income as well.[/QUOTE]

Not sure I agree, as Cob trees and hoop trees are available on a lot of saddles, especially the UK brands (makes a lot of sense, given the horse population over there.)

One thing about feeling like trees seem interchangeable – in many cases they are! A lot of the UK saddleries make the exact same trees for several different brands, but finish quality varies across the different brands. Borne and Sankey for example. The H&C tree is shared across several brands.

What I personally have not found is something that is in between a Cob tree and a regular tree. Mare is basically cob-shaped, except she has withers. She loved the T8 Cob tree when we had one on trial, except to get the gullet wide enough, it was sitting right on her withers, which would have been a problem long term.

And what I have not found easily is saddles for shorter riders**. I acknowledge that I am a tough fit, but I am far from unusual, especially in the crowd of older riders, who are the folks with the disposable income. I’d like a short flap as a regularly available option, and something making block placement better (velcro is one option, doesn’t work for all). Extended stirrup bars would be nice, too. But I’ve busted my saddle budget, so if I look at used saddles, I find things that fit the mare, but have 17 inch flaps, for example.

**(yes, I know about the Trilogy saddles… had one, it didn’t really fit my horse, and I discovered that in a true emergency, getting out of the deep seat in a hurry was not easy. Thank G-d for good mares who will stand still for a few seconds, even when their brains are falling out of their head…)

[Velvet]

quietann, OMG on the Trilogy. I am used to a lower cantle. I was getting off a horse in one and almost caught my leg because I wasn’t used to lifting it that high over the cantle! :lol:

[soloudinhere]

[QUOTE=quietann;8989452]
Not sure I agree, as Cob trees and hoop trees are available on a lot of saddles, especially the UK brands (makes a lot of sense, given the horse population over there.)

One thing about feeling like trees seem interchangeable – in many cases they are! A lot of the UK saddleries make the exact same trees for several different brands, but finish quality varies across the different brands. Borne and Sankey for example. The H&C tree is shared across several brands.

What I personally have not found is something that is in between a Cob tree and a regular tree. Mare is basically cob-shaped, except she has withers. She loved the T8 Cob tree when we had one on trial, except to get the gullet wide enough, it was sitting right on her withers, which would have been a problem long term.

And what I have not found easily is saddles for shorter riders**. I acknowledge that I am a tough fit, but I am far from unusual, especially in the crowd of older riders, who are the folks with the disposable income. I’d like a short flap as a regularly available option, and something making block placement better (velcro is one option, doesn’t work for all). Extended stirrup bars would be nice, too. But I’ve busted my saddle budget, so if I look at used saddles, I find things that fit the mare, but have 17 inch flaps, for example.

**(yes, I know about the Trilogy saddles… had one, it didn’t really fit my horse, and I discovered that in a true emergency, getting out of the deep seat in a hurry was not easy. Thank G-d for good mares who will stand still for a few seconds, even when their brains are falling out of their head…)[/QUOTE]

I have one of the aforementioned small wide stock horse types and I’m 5’ tall. The saddle that I have found that is “between a hoop and a regular” is prestige. Short flaps are no extra cost when ordering. Price is not outrageous new. So I think that ticked most of my boxes.

[Inclined]

quietann, that is the problem we have - a cobby back but with withers. There are saddles for table-backed ponies like my DD’s Welsh/paint, but my QH/Belgian has a wither with WIDE shoulders and round (not flat) back. It’s VERY hard to find something to fit him. The angles are never quite right on the saddles we’ve tried. That’s why I was thrilled to find the old one that works for him. I bought him a newer adjustable gullet saddle recently, and it’s wide enough and works ok, but again the angles aren’t quite right, and he definitely goes better in the old saddle. Thankfully, he’s very honest about whether any of his tack is uncomfortable, so I don’t have to guess.

[MysticOakRanch]

I totally disagree - back in the “good ol’ days”, the saddles didn’t fit horses well - all the English saddles were made for Thoroughbreds, narrow, long backs, high withers - you could get a “cut back head” or not. Most of the “wide” saddles were pathetically NOT wide. I was thrilled when I found a Neidersuiss (back then, much harder to find) because it was truly a wider saddle AND it had a wider channel.

The only reason I could ride in an English saddle is because there were no thigh blocks - so my very long femur would just put my leg over the saddle flap - and that was OK.

We didn’t understand fit as well, so generally the saddles were way too narrow in the channel, and often way too tight over the wither. They rocked, they bridged, they fit like sh*%. And many horses ended up with sore backs and white hairs on their withers, and that was just the way it was.

Saddle panels were rock hard, and that was OK too. If you got a French saddle with “foam”, it was guaranteed to compact to cement very quickly, and that was OK.

And now, we have a much wider variety of horses, and a much better range of choices for horse AND rider. Thank goodness!

However, everything has become way more expensive - you pay for all those options, that better quality leather, and of course, wages and materials have gone up. $800 in 1970 is really worth about $5,000 now, so have prices really gone up that much?

[Inclined]

[QUOTE=soloudinhere;8989514]
I have one of the aforementioned small wide stock horse types and I’m 5’ tall. The saddle that I have found that is “between a hoop and a regular” is prestige. Short flaps are no extra cost when ordering. Price is not outrageous new. So I think that ticked most of my boxes.[/QUOTE]

Thank you! I will look into that and will definitely keep that in mind for the future!

[Inclined]

Just to add, to avoid confusion, the seat and flaps on the ancient saddle I mentioned are shaped like the old Passiers, but the tree is a hoop tree with panels that are flocked but still soft. None of the newer hoop tree saddles I’ve seen would fit him, but I’m not sure if it’s the tree shapes or interference from the panels.