[QUOTE=Bluey;7395237]
Extremes are just that, extremes of what we may consider more natural, not that much we do with horses is that much of it “natural”, just as what we humans do has been long past what is “natural” for us.
:[/QUOTE]
there are freaks of nature that do have natural animation that others would consider un-natural… then the other trainers attempt to emulate what other’s does without aids
the freaks are rare and unreasonably become the cornerstone of expectations
[QUOTE=clanter;7395287]
there are freaks of nature that do have natural animation that others would consider un-natural… then the other trainers attempt to emulate what other’s does without aids
the freaks are rare and unreasonably become the cornerstone of expectations[/QUOTE]
That is true in everything.
Everyone breeding race horses is looking to get that one more freak that is faster than anyone else.
Who remembers the thrill of watching Secretariat beat all, by many lengths, time after time?
I’ll raise my hand on the contracted heels and long toes. The old guy still has contracted heels even after being barefoot and decently trimmed for four years.
I’m not even going to try to discuss the rest of the post.
There is always something nefarious going on in every discipline that uses a show with subjective criteria. Even the objective ones such as jumping and racing have their little ugly secrets.
Seeing as how we do things to ourselves for beauty and fashion, why be surprised?
A saddleseat trainer has taken over one of the barns where we board. I do believe that she loves and cares about the horses. I do not believe for one moment that she is an anomaly or a bad apple. She uses chains, draw reins, long, long feet with stacks, tail bustles elastic tubing tying the front legs together. To be fair, the long, long feet with stacks are on one of her client’s horse who is, to my understanding, shown country pleasure. None of her own horses wear stacks. Their feet are much longer than normal for the other disciplines represented in the barn. Her horses always have some sort of equipment that alters their natural gaits or carriage on them when they go out to work. Some type of head setting equipment is standard equipment.
I do not find the resulting caricature of a horse attractive. I do think it is abusive for horses to always have to work with their head pulled or tied into a certain “frame”. Nor do I understand how a horse can spend 23+ hours in their stall for years, if not their whole life, and, at the same time, be athletically fit enough to perform these exaggerated gaits without a high risk of significant injury. In this same barn I have seen 2 horses completely fried from the show circuit that she participates in. These are Morgans, not TWHs. I have not seen this same type of mental disability in horses from other disciplines. Not to say there aren’t, I’m just relating my own experience.
It is kind of rude to join a message board and start forcefully schooling its members on what does and does not take place in a specific discipline.
Every discipline has good and bad trainers, good and bad methods. Just because you say ginger tails never happen, stacked shoes never happen, abuse never happens, doesn’t make it true.
I love dressage, but I’m not going to start yelling at everyone about how dressage is natural and no one EVER uses rollkur, or a dressage whip in an abusive manner, or side reins that are too tight. I’m sure that somewhere, these things happen.
It is a shame, and I don’t agree with such things, but I can’t just come on here making claims that these things never ever occur.
If you want people to respect your discipline, perhaps be a little less confrontational about it, and don’t presume to speak for everyone involved in said discipline.
I show Arabians/Half-Arabians and spent a long time carefully looking at how people school and present their show horses before taking lessons with my saddleseat trainer. It doesn’t take abusive methods to present a saddleseat horse if you have a decent knowledge of how to properly train and condition the horse. Like any discipline, there are trainers who will do it the right way, and trainers who spend more time finding/implementing shortcuts than they would just training the horse. The horse I lesson on is an active show horse, and he bounces right out of his stall happy to go to work, and LOVES turning it on. He’s in a simple keg shoe right now, and will stay that way until show season. Do I ride him in draw reins? Yes, along with a straight snaffle rein. This gets me used to having one rein with leverage action, and one with snaffle action without me hitting the horse in the mouth with a curb bit every time I screw up. He regularly gets time to stretch out on a loose rein during lessons, and a lot of time is spent conditioning him to build strength through the hind end.
Are there abusive saddleseat trainers? Yes, and I know who they are in my area (at least in my breed), and avoid them like the plague. I also know who I’d recommend. There is one that takes all her show horses on mountain trail rides, and even the park horse is expected to cross a stream. Her clients also take their horses up on these whole-barn mountain trail rides, and her horses routinely look happy and upbeat at every show (from the western horses all the way to the park horses). Her horses adore her, and it shows. The trainer I use doesn’t have the access to the trails, but his horses are also very happy and pop right to the front of their stalls to say hi, and come out to work looking happy to do their job. I know when I walk in a barn and all the horses are pinning their ears at the trainer, there’s a problem. Do all saddleseat trainers turn out? Nope. But there are plenty that do. Do all dressage trainers turn out?
The bottom line is this: Every single discipline has amazing and crappy trainers. Every discipline has people who are in it for the horses, and people who are in it for the ribbons. Every discipline has its dark side. The beauty of the horse world is that there is a breed and discipline for every single person who wants to get involved. Whether it’s elite international sport or a mosey along the trails, quarter horses, saddlebreds, warmbloods, Arabs… Halter, hunting, driving… There’s something for EVERYONE. Just because you don’t like it is no reason to knock it. Be grateful it’s one more avenue to get people involved in horses.
[QUOTE=red mares;7394977]
Second, tails are still cut. My trainer one of the best in the business at it.[/QUOTE]
What does that even mean?
If it means your trainer cuts tails, do you endorse that (with your checkbook)? Why?
[QUOTE=MojitoMare;7395405]
It is kind of rude to join a message board and start forcefully schooling its members on what does and does not take place in a specific discipline.
Every discipline has good and bad trainers, good and bad methods. Just because you say ginger tails never happen, stacked shoes never happen, abuse never happens, doesn’t make it true.
I love dressage, but I’m not going to start yelling at everyone about how dressage is natural and no one EVER uses rollkur, or a dressage whip in an abusive manner, or side reins that are too tight. I’m sure that somewhere, these things happen.
It is a shame, and I don’t agree with such things, but I can’t just come on here making claims that these things never ever occur.
If you want people to respect your discipline, perhaps be a little less confrontational about it, and don’t presume to speak for everyone involved in said discipline.[/QUOTE]
Agree. I find COTH to be pretty fair to saddle seat folks & reasonably open minded. This isn’t the place to come get in people’s face about how wrong their perceptions are. In fact I find COTH much more welcoming to saddle seat people than the saddlebred forum was.
[QUOTE=Laurierace;7394910]
Would it be wrong to say even if everything you say were true, which I don’t believe it is, it still looks dumb?[/QUOTE]
So does hunter hair and half-asleep “steady” jumping at a lope. Your point…?
[QUOTE=Candle;7395277]
The OP sounds like she hasn’t been around long enough to see what goes on behind the scenes. Questionable or abusive practices happen in every discipline and there are and will always be the naive folks who defend the whole breed/discipline. Sounds like OP is bored and snowed in like the rest of us, or maybe just trolling for fun.[/QUOTE]
Yep. I agree.:yes:
[QUOTE=PlanB;7395108]
You keep using the word “natural”. Saddleseat, in my eyes, is the most unnatural-looking thing we can do with a horse. It hurts my back and neck just to look at.[/QUOTE]
Saddle seat is “natural” to most Saddlebreds because they have been bred to perform that way. The saddle seat rider position is a natural response to what the horse is doing to you.
Not every ASB finds saddle seat natural. My current horse didn’t so I ride him hunt seat. I liked the horse better than I liked the saddle. But, he will still occasionally morph from a hunter to a park horse. When he raises back his neck, squats down and starts popping his knees in the air, the only way to stay with him is to grip with your knees, sit on your back pockets and raise your hands. It is a transformation you may have to feel to appreciate, and yes, it comes naturally. It is genetic. And it is inspiring.
[QUOTE=danceronice;7395498]
So does hunter hair and half-asleep “steady” jumping at a lope. Your point…?[/QUOTE]
My point is even if it weren’t abusive, which I think it is, I think it is silly. What didn’t you understand about that? Your feelings about other disciplines don’t factor in to my opinions so feel free to express them however you like. I think steeplechasing is barbaric and barrel racing is awful. Do you want me to rate all the disciplines?
I don’t like Brussels Sprouts. IMO they are the work of Satan Himself. My sister thinks they are neater than bottled beer and will sometimes make an entire meal of them. She, by the way, is not very fond of spareribs and sauerkraut. I, on the other hand, see that as on a par with nectar and ambrosia. So we have a deal: she does not serve me Brussels Sprouts and I don’t serve her spareribs and sauerkraut.
I don’t like “saddle seat equitation.” My dislike has nothing to do with long toes, low heels, stacks, sitting over a horse’s kidneys, nicked tails, etc. I just don’t like it. It looks silly. Trying to look like Humphrey Bogart in a “zoot suit” makes it even sillier.
So how about a bargain? You won’t harangue me with what it isn’t and I won’t point out to you what it is?
G.
Humphrey Bogart in a zoot suit. BUAHAHAHAHA
[QUOTE=Laurierace;7395557]
My point is even if it weren’t abusive, which I think it is, I think it is silly. What didn’t you understand about that? Your feelings about other disciplines don’t factor in to my opinions so feel free to express them however you like. I think steeplechasing is barbaric and barrel racing is awful. Do you want me to rate all the disciplines?[/QUOTE]
Is it really all that hard for you to understand that everyone has different tastes? If you don’t like it, no one is making you post on it. Go enjoy your preferred disciplines, and let everyone else enjoy theirs.
Having been familiar with several trainers who kept their saddle seat horses in darkened stalls, and then jazzed them out of their minds, clanking cans tied to their tails, (Honest!!) when they did get out. I’ll agree that here are abusive trainers. I have also known saddlebred trainers who knew and practiced classical training, sadly fewer than the former.
I also object to the total artificiality of the discipline… I know people consider dressage artificial, but a GP dressage horse can and should go out for a gallop, and can and should be hacked out over hill and dale, I defy you to do that with today’s saddle seat saddlebreds with their artificial shoeing and their restricted activities.
No, it isn’t hard at all. Enjoy whatever you like, literally makes no difference to me. Don’t blow smoke up my butt and tell me this particular discipline is all sunshine and roses though because none of them are but this one is the worst offender in my opinion.
[QUOTE=MyssMyst;7395695]
Is it really all that hard for you to understand that everyone has different tastes? If you don’t like it, no one is making you post on it. Go enjoy your preferred disciplines, and let everyone else enjoy theirs.[/QUOTE]
No, it isn’t hard at all. Enjoy whatever you like, literally makes no difference to me. Don’t blow smoke up my butt and tell me this particular discipline is all sunshine and roses though because none of them are but this one is the worst offender in my opinion.
I grew up riding saddle seat. I loved it. It’s fun, it’s elegant, and a thrill. However, I grew up riding saddle seat when you could show english pleasure on an Arab or Morgan and they would have relatively short hooves and pretty straightforward shoeing. An english pleasure horse in those days (60s and 70s) could still lead a pretty normal horse life and be competitive. And the class really was about natural ability for the most part. I am not naive enough to think that people weren’t using shackles on open english pleasure horses in those days, for example, but generally speaking the horses went the way god meant for them to go.
Round about the late 80s they changed the shoeing regulations so that the horses could carry a much longer toe and a lot more weight. For Arabs, which I know best, this was a radical change in the way they went and I imagine the way they were trained. I dropped out around then to have twins. Fast forward to today and the whole english division looks radically different than it did 20 some years ago.
As much as I enjoyed it back in the day, I am not much interested in it now. They scare the bejeezus out of those horses - yes I was at an open house at a saddlebred barn where the trainer spoke openly about using firecrackers and fire extinguishers to get the horses animated. I see people at Arab shows bagging the horses before the classes to get them up. I just don’t care for that at all, so I don’t have much to do with it.
OP, there is lots of dirty laundry in the saddle seat world that has nothing to do with TWHs. Calm down, take a look around, choose your trainer carefully. There are legit reasons why people don’t like saddle seat - try to understand why before you accuse us of doing what you are doing yourself - stereotyping!
(Sorry for the old fart lectures, but those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it, or something like that! 
)
[QUOTE=oldernewbie;7395722]
OP, there is lots of dirty laundry in the saddle seat world that has nothing to do with TWHs. Calm down, take a look around, choose your trainer carefully. There are legit reasons why people don’t like saddle seat - try to understand why before you accuse us of doing what you are doing yourself - stereotyping!
(Sorry for the old fart lectures, but those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it, or something like that! )[/QUOTE]
Thank you, Laurierace, and, a bit more diplomatically, Oldernewbie. I agree with you both.
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