Ungh…I couldn’t stomach that video. I’m sorry. I know this is some people’s chosen discipline but for me, the techniques I am just learning about today are barbaric. I know I know, some people would have a problem with my H/J wannabe eventing background and I honestly do respect that difference of opinion, but I personally feel that the use of stacks, tail setting, soaring, etc is barbaric. As I said, I am just now today learning more about these things after 30+ years in horses.
I feel like the use of mechanical aids to achieve a desired look is not natural. I don’t believe we should crank down a head to get a desired headset quicker such as in dressage with Rolkur or tying a head to a saddle to create flexibility anymore than I agree with any of these aids I am learning about in the gaited world. When I train, I very rarely use anything but basic tack. Occasionally I may use side reins but I do not crank them tight but use them to encourage not demand goal. I certainly care about my horse’s comfort and I do not see how any of these gaited techniques can be comfortable.
Have you ever tried holding your arms up above your head for a length of time? Eventually it hurts, and that is without support. I can’t imagine for one second being strapped in a harness and being made to carry my arms abnormally. I felt bad for a friend in high school who broke his collarbone during football and had to have his arms braced up. He would be in pain in his cast and his arms would be numb and he was miserable. I would think I would feel the same way if I were a horse and someone made my tail do this.
I do realize that there are good trainers with better techniques in all disciplines and the bad ones are the ones everyone remembers but the truth about training is that you work with what you’ve got. If you have to duct tape, strap it up, tie a maze of leather, or chain down something to get an animal to perform the way you feel it should, that’s not training, that’s just wrong.
Chachie, that’s why you find trainers who will tell you a horse isn’t suited to the discipline, and advise you to go with something the horse IS suited for.
I agree with that MyssMyst 1000% however, even if a horse is suited for a particular discipline, I still don’t agree that bondage needs to be part of a horse’s training
I have been around Saddlebreds for years (over a decade now) and have personally ridden for and worked with/for some of the top names in the business (Walnut Way, Nealia McCracken, the Wentz family, etc).
The idea that show ASBs are never turned out is insane. I know when I was there most horses at Walnut Way, even the undefeated roadster Marilyn had at the time, were turned out the entire winter, with their shoes off and tail sets off. Visit Nealia’s farm in North Jersey and you’ll see a ton of horses chilling outside as soon as you pull into the driveway. Plenty of H/J and western horses are never, ever turned out, by the way.
The trainers I worked for used the tailsets and shoes, but I have never seen a trainer I worked for use ginger or soring or anything like that. Obviously, it is done, and I have seen it done.
I have also seen jumper trainers rap their horses hard over a fence to make them pick their legs up. I’ve seen western trainers tie horses’ heads to their tails or tie their heads to the rafters all night long. I’ve seen hunter trainers dope their horses to the gills. Yet saddleseat is continually singled out because “it looks weird lol.” It is frustrating.
Most ASBs that you see in the show ring do move that way naturally. The shoes enhance this, and are used as a training aid, I could point to many things in other disciplines that are used this way. You’ll see divisions like “Country Pleasure” where the less flashy movers are shown, these horses often just have regular shoes. In my experience, the natural tails are becoming more popular. I hope we’ll see the pendulum swing in that direction.
Also, I used to show in the saddleseat eq, and the perception that saddleseat riders cannot ride because they sit further back is absurd. I never worked as hard or rode as well as I did when I showed in the medals. Hell, my trainers used to make me ride without a girth until my balance was better. I didn’t even see a stirrup for months at a time. If you watch a saddleseat eq final at one of the big shows, you’ll see them basically doing tempi changes, riding without stirrups, those kinds of things. Obviously, there are “big time” trainers who are terrifying to watch ride (the joke we had was that William Shatner popularized the Western classes for ASBs because that was the only way he could stay on his horses!), but that doesn’t mean that no one showing in the discipline can ride.
Most of my training sessions were done in a clean, well-lit ring. Nealia cracked a whip to make the horses “up” more (but seriously, get on a 5-gaited show horse… most of them do not need any further excitement haha), Marilyn would use a paper cup on the end of a whip, some people will tape/staple tape measures together to get a rattling effect. I only had one trainer who set off smoke bombs in the ring, he was an Arab trainer and I subsequently left that barn. Just like your jumper gets excited and prances when the buzzer goes off, so do many ASBs get “pumped up” when they’re in the show ring and the music is playing.
How many horses do you see with braided manes and tails and no whiskers perfectly and slowly jumping around a course of their own creation in their fields? None, but you see horses jumping over logs and stuff of their own volition. Similarly, you see horses doing “pirouettes” and lead changes by themselves, but no horse runs through a test in its field by itself. All disciplines have some artifice contained within them. I don’t understand why saddleseat is continually singled out.
Chachie, there are a variety of classes to show in in the ASB world (not sure about Morgans or TWHs). Hackney ponies show in either the “Fine Harness” type classes, where they step very high like your “image” of a Hackney, or they can show in Pleasure, which is a “downgraded,” more natural version, or they can show in Roadster, which is basically just demon ponies running around fast as hell - those ponies are much flatter movers than the fine harness ponies. ASBs can show in Western, hunt seat, pleasure, Academy, 3-gaited, 5-gaited, etc. No trainer worth his or her salt would force a horse using “bondage” to do something that the horse isn’t suited for. “Bondage” is not part of every ASB’s training. I’ve never worked with an ASB trainer who sored their horses, and I was at the barns 24/7 in the summers, at barns that were nationally competitive. I actually agree and think that the tail-setting is ridiculous, it’s my one big gripe with the ASB world. I don’t think the things that you think of the ASB world and their training methodologies are an accurate representation of what actually goes on. The bad stuff is sensationalized and the good stuff goes unnoticed. I’ve seen like three horses worked in stretchies in my entire time with ASBs. Does that mean it doesn’t happen? Of course not. But the idea that these horses are trussed up like Christmas turkeys 24/7 is patently absurd.
[QUOTE=Sparrowette;7398902]
Don’t know if this was posted earlier, but I found it interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2nhyqOITcs
Early in the video, he talks about how the horse has to be comfortable, else he’ll do whatever to get it off. Makes sense to me.[/QUOTE]
I am sorry, that makes NO SENSE to me.
Don’t they have those “tail rails” mentioned on here, otherwise the horse WOULD take off that contraption?
That video turned my stomach. I am not buying that these devises are “comfortable” for the horse! Go out side and lift your horse’s tail straight up in the air - see what their reaction is! (course, my horse has not had muscle’s in its tail cut - I do not believe in doing such a thing for aesthetics)
The tail has muscles and bone which are attached to the spinal column via bone and muscle, (not to mention nerves). There is a reason why a “relaxed swinging tail” is desired in some disciplines, it reflects a relaxed and engaged back. Jacking up the tail, tying it down, wrenching it around - Nope, not buying that this is something the horse would enjoy.
You know, big licker’s also claim that the stacked shoes are just fine, and comfortable for their horses.
[edited to add - and the one saddle seat barn I have been to, and visited on many occasions, (it was on the same grounds as a h/j barn I was riding at, we have many multi-use facilities out here). The horses DID live in stalls, with tail sets on 24/7. Might not be the case at every barn, but that is how these horses lived).
[QUOTE=Laurierace;7398886]
I always wondered why the horses that are gingered and sored and such before a show don’t go ape S*%t and kill their riders by flipping or throwing themselves to the ground. I had one mare that I put DMSO on her legs and she went so crazy she almost killed herself, if there was a rider on her they would have been mangled. I guess that is a testament to their temperament because I can’t imagine many breeds of horses tolerating that.[/QUOTE]
FYI, this is the all-too-common miconception in which ‘big lick’ TWH - that are sored - are confused with Saddlebreds. Saddlebreds are never sored. Saddlebreds must be able to demonstrate a sound, balanced TROT. The TWH on the other hand, in which the horse basically sits down and throws its front feet out, has been the victim of ‘soring’.
[QUOTE=Appsolute;7399451]
I am sorry, that makes NO SENSE to me.
Don’t they have those “tail rails” mentioned on here, otherwise the horse WOULD take off that contraption?
That video turned my stomach. I am not buying that these devises are “comfortable” for the horse! Go out side and lift your horse’s tail straight up in the air - see what their reaction is! (course, my horse has not had muscle’s in its tail cut - I do not believe in doing such a thing for aesthetics)
The tail has muscles and bone which are attached to the spinal column via bone and muscle, (not to mention nerves). There is a reason why a “relaxed swinging tail” is desired in some disciplines, it reflects a relaxed and engaged back. Jacking up the tail, tying it down, wrenching it around - Nope, not buying that this is something the horse would enjoy.
You know, big licker’s also claim that the stacked shoes are just fine, and comfortable for their horses.
[edited to add - and the one saddle seat barn I have been to, and visited on many occasions, (it was on the same grounds as a h/j barn I was riding at, we have many multi-use facilities out here). The horses DID live in stalls, with tail sets on 24/7. Might not be the case at every barn, but that is how these horses lived).[/QUOTE]
You are missing the point of tail boards. The point of tail boards is to keep them from rubbing their tails, not rubbing the set off. Have you seen the long tails on ASBs? Many of those are natural - no fake tail. The boards protect the HAIR from being broken off. Many horses will rub against the wall even if they aren’t in a tail set, and when they do, the hair is broken. Ever seen a tail frizzed out at the top with short little hairs? That comes from rubbing.
BTW, many barns don’t have tail boards anymore. My guess is they are re-using a space and that upgrade isn’t a high priority for tight trainer dollars.
My horses have spent lots of time in a stall & I’m not going to apologize for it. Show horses of all stripes usually spend a lot of time in a stall. Just because they aren’t running free like mustangs doesn’t mean they are unhappy.
To someone else’s comment about a set being uncomfortable - I’ve spent probably half of the last 2 years with my foot in a boot/cast. Neutral position for me is abnormal & not where my foot wants to go. However, after the first day or so, I haven’t had any muscle spasms or cramps while in it. I find the opposite happens & my lower leg relaxes when I use it. JME.
We must have watched different videos. Clem’s horse in the video I saw was relaxed, calm, and in no discomfort or distress. I’d like a link to the one you saw.
I saw the same video you did. Yes, the horse is relaxed. I am guessing it is not it’s first time going through the process. A muscle in the tail is cut to achieve this yes?
We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. No horse I own will ever have its tail set. I do not agree with going to such great lengths for “looks”, heck, I won’t even pull the tail because I do not agree with it. Tail setting is not something that benefits the horse.
And my experiences with casts (hand to elbow for a severed finger) are very different than yours, lots of cramping, pain, and when the cast came off, even more cramping and discomfort as the muscles tried to work again.
Muscles are not cut. Tendons on either side of the tail are have a small cut, not severing the tendon.
[QUOTE=ReSomething;7398388]
D Bald, that horse is at liberty. What will happen when that horse is put into a show situation? Will he win? Or does the waterfall tail and the natural action not equal “enough”?[/QUOTE]
What a horse offers for a short period at liberty is difficult for any trainer to have a horse replicate in a show situation: you have added a rider, many distractions and set routine the horse is to learn to respond to.
No reiner, event horse, dressage horse, jumper ‘does it all by themselves’ in competition.
Will a trainer use tools to make it easier for a horse to understand what is wanted or to enable a horse to give more of the desired performance? Yes.
Can that degenerate into abusive practice? Yes.
Will the horse’s behavior ‘tell’ on the trainer? Yes.
This is a picture of tail vertebrae
http://www.rodnikkel.com/content/files/1313/2678/4895/2012_Jan_15_6_caudal_vertebrae_equine.jpg
For the range of motion on a horse’s tail simply google defecating horse, mare in heat, and excited horse.
Look at the vertebrae in the tail.
Look at your own index finger as to closest (though inadequate) match to flexibility. Does it hurt to straigten or flex your finger?
That is only 3 joints with a limit in basically 2 directions. A horse’s tail can flex in all directions and has 10 or more segments.
If you put a splint on your finger at any angle it should normally take, fully padded and gently wrapped, would it be painful?
Would your finger come out of the splint with more limited motion (very likely) and a comfort area closer to how it was splinted?
There are many massage therapists who also work tails, not to mention the Tellington-touch system: http://www.eec-equine-therapy.com/Horse39s-Tail.html
None of this is painful or soring.
This lameness text outlines a horse’s normal tail reaction;
http://books.google.com/books?id=wnfv_8dbGcEC&pg=PT2499&lpg=PT2499&dq=HORSE+TAIL+RANGE+OF+MOTION&source=bl&ots=Kn70t55Ykv&sig=0AVc7-fmfa3vm7ypLFeYyiOnoYA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Cg7oUvSJIMPXrgG1h4F4&ved=0CCMQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=HORSE%20TAIL%20RANGE%20OF%20MOTION&f=false
The short answer to your question is NO. Wouldn’t be enough, without the rider and consistency.
Nor will a free jump count in jump competition nor a correct spin in the pasture rate a reiner. Potential is just that.
And a show is like an Opera or Ballroom Dance competition: not reality as we know it: spectacular.
I’ve worked in ‘show horse’ barns.
Most horses are far more irritated by their feed being done out of sequence or late than any grooming (including tail set adjustment) or normal shoe, strap or boot. They are like clothing to humans.
Horses with mane braids (hunter, dressage) have been seen to try to rub them out at shows, is this abuse?
[QUOTE=Appsolute;7399654]
I do not agree with going to such great lengths for “looks”, heck, I won’t even pull the tail because I do not agree with it. Tail setting is not something that benefits the horse.
And my experiences with casts (hand to elbow for a severed finger) are very different than yours, lots of cramping, pain, and when the cast came off, even more cramping and discomfort as the muscles tried to work again.[/QUOTE]
Very little of what we as horsemen do benefits the horse. Aside from feeding, giving vet care, trimming feet… Even your minamilist type of riding isn’t “of benefit” to the horse. No high horse to be had there if that’s the gold standard you hold all equestrians to. 
Nobody’s saying that it’s “of benefit” to the horse. What we are saying is that DONE CORRECTLY, None of these things is perceived as a horror to the horse. They can all be done right without turning the horse into an unsound, miserable creature. There are going to be those doing it right and those doing it wrong in all disciplines. Those who are producing happy healthy sound horses whether they are flat shod or padded should not be painted with the same brush as those who do not. It’s no less than we do for those who ride dressage without a choke hold on their horse, digging with spurs and seatbones, jaw cranked shut with a noseband, or those who jump without rapping legs with poles, or western pleasure without tying horses around for hours on end.
[QUOTE=Appsolute;7399654]
I saw the same video you did. Yes, the horse is relaxed. I am guessing it is not it’s first time going through the process. A muscle in the tail is cut to achieve this yes?
We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. No horse I own will ever have its tail set. I do not agree with going to such great lengths for “looks”, heck, I won’t even pull the tail because I do not agree with it. Tail setting is not something that benefits the horse.
And my experiences with casts (hand to elbow for a severed finger) are very different than yours, lots of cramping, pain, and when the cast came off, even more cramping and discomfort as the muscles tried to work again.[/QUOTE]
How does carrying a rider benefit the horse?
[QUOTE=red mares;7399699]
Muscles are not cut. Tendons on either side of the tail are have a small cut, not severing the tendon.[/QUOTE]
And this benefits the horse how?
There is no benefit to the horse. There is no benefit to the performance.
It is done to meet someone else’s subjective sense of beauty, like cropping ears on dogs or corsets or binding of feet on women.
My friends who are artists have become extremely conscious of how art can distort what people look for in horses, to the detriment of the horse. Exaggerated thin legs or tiny muzzles are among the traits that people have sought to duplicate.
Instead, we could choose to admire the natural carriage of the horse’s tail, and accept that some horses hold their tails higher and more consistently than others.
Altering the tendons or muscles in the tail is no better than doing cosmetic surgery on the horse’s neck or trimming the ears to be just the right size and shape.
If that’s what you want, why not invest in a beautiful life-sized sculpture? It can be perfect all the time.
Why does a horse need plastic surgery to be more beautiful to you?
Do you have a gelding? Castration is unnatural, painful and done for the convenience of people. There is no reason to cut a stud other than the owner doesn’t want to deal with a stallion.
And please tell me why a horse needs his mane pulled to be attractive? I certainly don’t want anyone pulling my hair out a couple times a year.
[QUOTE=red mares;7400177]
Do you have a gelding? Castration is unnatural, painful and done for the convenience of people. There is no reason to cut a stud other than the owner doesn’t want to deal with a stallion.[/QUOTE]
Look! behind that tree!
It’s not relevant to the conversation, but actually gelding does have benefits to the horse. It allows him to be turned out safely with other horses. It also gives him the option of a job with younger and/or less experienced people.
By contrast: males of most other livestock species are only raised until they are old enough to eat. And then, they are eaten.
Gelding allows PEOPLE to turn the horse out in a manner more convenient to themselves. The horse would work things out, and a few foals would result (that people didn’t want) Sure gelding has it’s benefits, and I’m not advocating it’s elimination but don’t kid yourself gelding is done primarily for the convenience of the horse’s owners.
BTW, I don’t have any problem eating them, so you probably don’t want to go there.
[QUOTE=sdlbredfan;7399567]
FYI, this is the all-too-common miconception in which ‘big lick’ TWH - that are sored - are confused with Saddlebreds. Saddlebreds are never sored. Saddlebreds must be able to demonstrate a sound, balanced TROT. The TWH on the other hand, in which the horse basically sits down and throws its front feet out, has been the victim of ‘soring’.[/QUOTE]
My apologies. I was lumping everything ridden saddle seat together as they all seem to move strangely to me. I still think they seem incredibly tolerant. How many threads do we have where a horse is bucking, rearing, balking, whatever due to the smallest thing?
Got it - personally, my horse lives in a large paddock with a stall, gets group turn out for most of the day, works in the arena only occasionally - to improve suppleness and straightness, and otherwise enjoys trail rides (which I take her out on as often as possible as I believe exercise is necessary for the health of the horse. Although sometimes we go for “hikes” instead, I need exercise too so I lead her). Mane and tail are trimmed, never pulled, and she gets to keep her whiskers.
But I see now, the fact that I “ride” her is no different than cutting her tail - and asking her live in a harness 24/7 to keep the tail set in an unnatural position. Totally apples to apples.
[QUOTE=red mares;7400177]
And please tell me why a horse needs his mane pulled to be attractive? I certainly don’t want anyone pulling my hair out a couple times a year.[/QUOTE]
I quit pulling manes YEARS ago - I can do a fine job with a clipper blade. No need to put the horse through needless pain for aesthetics. And last I checked, a gelding does not have to live in a harness - its a once time procedure, quick healing time, and then its done.
Really, I do try to avoid inflicting pain or discomfort upon my horse for aesthetics.
[QUOTE=red mares;7400177]
Do you have a gelding? Castration is unnatural, painful and done for the convenience of people. There is no reason to cut a stud other than the owner doesn’t want to deal with a stallion.
And please tell me why a horse needs his mane pulled to be attractive? I certainly don’t want anyone pulling my hair out a couple times a year.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=red mares;7400190]Gelding allows PEOPLE to turn the horse out in a manner more convenient to themselves. The horse would work things out, and a few foals would result (that people didn’t want) Sure gelding has it’s benefits, and I’m not advocating it’s elimination but don’t kid yourself gelding is done primarily for the convenience of the horse’s owners.
BTW, I don’t have any problem eating them, so you probably don’t want to go there.[/QUOTE]
Not really, there you are wrong, comparing cutting tails to gelding.
Cutting tails doesn’t has any value at all for any other than the vanity of those that like that look in the breed, a very few.
Castrating/gelding is good animal husbandry, for some individuals and breeds and for the uses we make of those, where gelding permits us those uses.
If we don’t geld, we have to manage male horses very differently and many would not be suitable but for slaughter, there are not that much use for stallions, they demand higher management than gelding by far.
The same with bulls, very few are kept as bulls, the rest are steers and at one time, oxen, because bulls are generally dangerous when mature animals and need special management.
If you cut the tail of a saddle bred or not, that horse can do exactly the same it is doing either way, other than have a cut tail sticking up.
Plus, it has to wear contraptions or wraps to keep that cut tail trained up there, not really that comfortable for those horses.
Fine if some want to cut tails, but really, just admit it is done for looks.
Trying to find strange excuses for that is not going to help convince anyone.:no:
Cutting a tail does have an advantage for a harness horse, since it can’t firmly clamp its’ tail down on a line if it gets under the tail. And that can create a very lively wreck wehn it happens.
Many Saddle seat breeds were supposed to ride and drive.
The set look can be gotten without surgery with most horses with stretching and slow adjusting of the set. In other words, outlawing tail cutting would not stop tail setting. And at that point you are disliking a ‘look’ that a horse can do without discomfort -and labeling that abuse. Whether there are many people or just a few who like ‘the look’ has nothing to do with whether it is abusive.
While I suppose there may be stables that do keep horses up in tailsets for long periods, I have never seen it for more than a week to 10 days consecutively before a show.
And it is removed every time the horse is worked, ridden, groomed (that would be daily), blanket weights changed…
Other horses do wear blankets without it being abusive, correct?
And a tail that is not in a set, whether cut or not, often looks exactly like one that hasn’t been cut after a month or less. In other words; same as any other tail.
For the show ring they ‘stick up’, but not anywhere else or if the horse is not showing that month.
Just trying to clarify some time frames for people.
I am in favor of gelding unmanageable stallions; but lets remember that it is far more popular here in North America than in Europe and there are several breeds where stallions are ridden by juniors - Arabians, anyone?
