[QUOTE=poltroon;7397784]
David O’Connor said in one of the USEF meetings that if you’re not prepared to train and manage your horses in Central Park with an NBC camera crew documenting your every move, then it’s tIime to reconsider what you’re doing. I think those are words every trainer in every discipline should take to heart.[/QUOTE]
And I think that very many of the best in the ASB/saddle seat business would pass that particular test with flying colors.
I think that many of the second tier barns would pass as well.
Late to the discussion as usual.
I won’t go into ‘action devices’ or ‘shoeing enhancement’ other than to say that with Saddle seat breeds, most individuals react to ‘something on my leg or hoof’ with much greater flexion. A leather strap weighs far less than a ‘protective’ bell boot, yet there go the hocks/knees up in the air.
Most shoeing of arena horses is for arena performance, whether that is reining, dressage, Saddle seat or hunter (barefoot in the hack anyone?) and horses expected to go out on trails or cross country would not be wearing sliding shoes or Dressage rockers, or Saddle seat performance shoes.
As to the ‘look’ being silly, that is a label attached to a unique and bred for way of going, and a matter of personal taste, which is great, more diversity is a fine thing. Different horses for different tastes.
On the other hand it is not unnatural in basic design.
Videos prove the neck set on is different, the preferred gait is different, the horse moves differently for the unenhanced FOALS in these videos. These ‘high horses’ have the same abilities to graze and lie down, raising and lowering their heads as any others, their natural carriage while moving is much higher than TB or Thoroughbred. -Last 2 videos are TB foals-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H5yld7WH54
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h3DD9JOkZU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le-yd52hkYg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKPVWK-3Pgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJaax0BnMDA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0hXQ8LC3XM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rZv790_2xk
Will these horses retain this basic difference into adulthood?
Late to the discussion as usual.
I won’t go into ‘action devices’ or ‘shoeing enhancement’ other than to say that with Saddle seat breeds, most individuals react to ‘something on my leg or hoof’ with much greater flexion. A leather strap weighs far less than a ‘protective’ bell boot, yet there go the hocks/knees up in the air.
Most shoeing of arena horses is for arena performance, whether that is reining, dressage, Saddle seat or hunter (barefoot in the hack anyone?) and horses expected to go out on trails or cross country would not be wearing sliding shoes or Dressage rockers, or Saddle seat performance shoes.
As to the ‘look’ being silly, that is a label attached to a unique and bred for way of going, and a matter of personal taste, which is great, more diversity is a fine thing. Different horses for different tastes.
On the other hand it is not unnatural in basic design.
Videos prove the neck set on is different, the preferred gait is different, the horse moves differently for the unenhanced FOALS in these videos. These ‘high horses’ have the same abilities to graze and lie down, raising and lowering their heads as any others, their natural carriage while moving is much higher than TB or Thoroughbred. -Last 2 videos are TB foals-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H5yld7WH54
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h3DD9JOkZU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le-yd52hkYg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKPVWK-3Pgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJaax0BnMDA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0hXQ8LC3XM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rZv790_2xk
Will these horses retain this basic difference into adulthood?
This is an adult saddleseat type horse.
He is without action devices, is barefoot behind and wears plates up front.
He has nothing on his head or anywhere else.
He is not Chestnut, his tail is natural, his neckset and carriage are natural and easy for him, he flexes through the loin and drives off his hindquarters through a short, strong back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bpLBW69Uwc
You may not prefer this sort of horse and that is fine; for those who admire and appreciate the type, his talent is very natural and he’s bred to pass it on to his get.
Just as Dressage horses today look different from horses of 40 years ago, as do many Quarterhorses, jumpers, Thoroughbreds, etc., Saddle seat horses have evolved along with their discipline through selection by man.
So only addressing the ‘it is all faked and unnatural’ aspect of perception of Saddle seat.
Carry on.
D Bald, that horse is at liberty. What will happen when that horse is put into a show situation? Will he win? Or does the waterfall tail and the natural action not equal “enough”?
As many people have said, every discipline has unscrupulous training methods. My first pony happened to be a hackney/saddlebred cross. Yes, his tail was cut and in a tailset. They do try to protect the underside of the tail with soft flannel. He had natural high action, but it was enhanced by pads and shoes. The chains and tubing tied to bell boots didn’t seem to be too bothersome to the horses. I felt more badly about the gingering in the rectum before showing and the use of plastic bags and other scary stuff to “heighten” the animation of the horse. And, yes, the poor horses were never turned out - only got about 20 minutes of being ridden every other day or so - that was the extent of them being out of their stalls. No wonder so many of them were cribbers and stall weavers.
I switched disciplines and retired my pony to my backyard. He still had high natural action without shoes. He could swish his tail just fine - another saddlebred myth - he was sweet as all get out, as were many of the saddlebreds I’ve known.
I prefer the more “natural” movement and look of my OTTB now, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t bad people in hunter/jumper land or on the track. Different disciplines, different practices and possible abuses. The ASB is a nice breed, but the practices of ASB showing and training probably aren’t the most humane.
A natural ASB or Arabian is a beautiful horse indeed. More people who keep them should trust their essential horseness to come through and captivate us all.
Ah, but what would be considered “natural” make those who dislike the “show horse” routine happy?
Just plates? No martingale on a work bridle? Dressage curb bits only? No curb bits? Barefoot? Not allowed to raise up into their natural frame? There are plenty of people out there who just can’t fathom that a horse who is built upright is not going to be happy or comfortable when expected to set up like a qh or thoroughbred and any horse with any sort of presence at all HAS to be abused. Heck, I did the open show circuits growing up on my old ASB mare back in the day. She was untypey. Low and forwarded headed, no front end to speak of, never wore stretchies, had no snort or blow or fire (not for several years after that point), wearing the same plates we fished her out of the pasture at my grandparents the day before. Just a quiet kids horse. And we had people going on about how her tail was cut (mare never wore a bustle. When she flagged her tail, it stood STRAIGHT up LOL) and she was sored, and saddlebreds were crazy… Must have been another saddlebred on the grounds that I never saw because… they couldn’t have been talking about my horse. LOL The point of this? Some people are just never gonna be happy.
For the record, I think that the heavy contact that a lot of dressage people require of their horses is far more unkind than allowing a horse to be light and raise up. I don’t like that they’re picked at every stride either. My horse would tell me to get the “F” off if I did that. And I don’t like the product of an awful lot of western pleasure trainers. Lots of horses who are totally shut down, sour, . But I’m not gonna say “OH MY GOD! IT’S DIFFERENT! IT’S BAD BAD BAD! SOMEONE CALL THE HUMANE SOCIETY!” and bitch about the whole lot the way a lot of people want to do with the entire saddle seat world. Because I know in those worlds that the horses who come by these jobs via natural talent and ability with good training (even if I don’t agree with every aspect of it) deserve my respect.
When I’m working my horse, the last thing I’m worried about is making the rest of the planet happy with it. If he’s happy and confident in his work- coming out of his stall with his ears up and a good attitude and working sound- then… well… we’re good. If he’s sour, sore, and shut down, then come and talk to me about how what I’m asking of him is bad cruel. Until then, we will keep on doing like we’re doing. I board at a dressage barn. I work in stretchies, chains, etc… and periodically air him up a bit. and everyone has pretty much shut up about “oooh unnatural Saddlebred” because… well… my horse comes out, works, enjoys his job and isn’t abused.
[QUOTE=blairasb;7398721]
Not allowed to raise up into their natural frame? There are plenty of people out there who just can’t fathom that a horse who is built upright is not going to be happy or comfortable when expected to set up like a qh or thoroughbred and any horse with any sort of presence at all HAS to be abused. [/QUOTE]
There is a thread on the dressage forum right now where someone is asking how to lower the naturally high headset of their saddlebred. How is that letting the horse be himself? Is OK just because it’s dress-aahh-ge?
There have been a couple threads in the driving forum in the last 6 months from people who got hackney ponies and assume they have abused - simply because the natural hackney (or saddlebred) attitude is not the same as a QH attitude.
Ok this thread opened my eyes up to the ASB show world. I know nothing about gaited horses and have only ridden one in my life. The flashy animated mobster style was never my thing. I never knew they set their tails that way and I’m curious about why and how they use surgical tubing to make them more animated.
Can someone post picture? This is all new to me and I will be honest, I dislike it even more now.
Looks like Marwari ears 
[QUOTE=Laurierace;7396984]
For my 40th birthday I asked people to donate to a horse rescue in lieu of gifts. We then went to New Holland the next Monday and bought this guy out of the kill pen. He was quickly adopted. I share this not to bash the breed or the discipline further but to show that I like them enough to choose to save one.[/QUOTE]
Awww- looks like a SB that wanted to be Marwari
The surgical tubing is easy. It’s resistance training for the horse. A lenght of tubing is cut of a length where the horse stretches it when they are at the top of their stride. . It’s attached between the front ankles to leather cuffs lined in sheepskin. The horse wears them while warming up at the walk and trot. They are encouraged to put their front legs through a full range of motion. They build strength and flexibility in their shoulders. And if a horse doesn’t want to use them, there’s pretty much NO way to make them use it. They simply will hang back behind them and refuse to pull the tubing as they trot. My old gelding could suck back behind it. He also knew how to break it by stepping on it. So… No stretchies for Andy.
People use the same darn thing at the gym for the same purpose.
The surgical tubing is easy. It’s resistance training for the horse. A lenght of tubing is cut of a length where the horse stretches it when they are at the top of their stride. . It’s attached between the front ankles to leather cuffs lined in sheepskin. The horse wears them while warming up at the walk and trot. They are encouraged to put their front legs through a full range of motion. They build strength and flexibility in their shoulders. And if a horse doesn’t want to use them, there’s pretty much NO way to make them use it. They simply will hang back behind them and refuse to pull the tubing as they trot. My old gelding could suck back behind it. He also knew how to break it by stepping on it. So… No stretchies for Andy.
People use the same darn thing at the gym for the same purpose.
I always wondered why the horses that are gingered and sored and such before a show don’t go ape S*%t and kill their riders by flipping or throwing themselves to the ground. I had one mare that I put DMSO on her legs and she went so crazy she almost killed herself, if there was a rider on her they would have been mangled. I guess that is a testament to their temperament because I can’t imagine many breeds of horses tolerating that.
Don’t know if this was posted earlier, but I found it interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2nhyqOITcs
Early in the video, he talks about how the horse has to be comfortable, else he’ll do whatever to get it off. Makes sense to me.
[QUOTE=Laurierace;7398886]
I always wondered why the horses that are gingered and sored and such before a show don’t go ape S*%t and kill their riders by flipping or throwing themselves to the ground. I had one mare that I put DMSO on her legs and she went so crazy she almost killed herself, if there was a rider on her they would have been mangled. I guess that is a testament to their temperament because I can’t imagine many breeds of horses tolerating that.[/QUOTE]
How does capsaicin work as opposed to ginger?
I don’t know. I never stuck anything up a horse’s rectum.
Taking off on one of OP’s points: there are indeed naturally moving TWHs. Several years ago at NYS Breeders’ Show (a real hotbed of TWHs - NOT), we watched a drop-dead-gorgeous young stallion go in a keg-shod class. Talked with owner afterwards, complimenting her on her riding and the wonderful free motion of her horse. She smiled and said “You haven’t seen anything! I wish they’d let us cross-enter into the [can’t recall what they call their main performance division].” We looked at her in astonishment. She said, “Oh yes - he’d blow them away - shod just as he is. Watch.” And she proceeded around the warmup while our eyes popped out of our heads. I’ve seen big-lick horses in KY - this horse was simply amazingly NATURAL.
Her husband was transferred that year and we never saw her again. But she and that horse were what TWHs were meant to be.
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