Why does a train-wreck thread in the making always have to start while I’m at work and cannot follow along all day???
I really like saddlebred horses, I have know a few and really fell in love with their personality, lots of try coupled with spunk.
That said - when I walked into my first saddle seat barn I was SHOCKED to see the horses living in tail sets like these.
And no - I will not be convinced that setting a tail like this brings no discomfort to the horse.
Is this the same Saddleseat Queen/Tracy/AptorHours/StormGSD
If not Welcome to the board but that was a pretty strong My way or the highway type of post for your first one.
We have a lot of disciplines on this board and gaited horses are not everyone’s cup of tea.
[QUOTE=Appsolute;7397365]
I really like saddlebred horses, I have know a few and really fell in love with their personality, lots of try coupled with spunk.
That said - when I walked into my first saddle seat barn I was SHOCKED to see the horses living in tail sets like these.
And no - I will not be convinced that setting a tail like this brings no discomfort to the horse.[/QUOTE]
Hey, at least it is color coordinated.
Tail harnesses I saw decades ago were out of wood and leather, best I remember and the stalls had “tail rails” to keep them from rubbing those off, as they told me.
In some western riding, where tail switching is penalized, many cut tails some, or block them while horses are showing.
It is against the rules to alter tails, stewards check that at some shows, as I hear, but if done right, it is hard to detect.
Some people will do anything to do whatever they need to do to participate, if they want to play the game with the cards given.
Redmares- I thought it was more recently than that I want to say late 70s and it was mostly in the QH breed as I recall.
[QUOTE=5;7397437]
Redmares- I thought it was more recently than that I want to say late 70s and it was mostly in the QH breed as I recall.[/QUOTE]
I assume you’re talking ears - you may be right; I have no clue as to what they do in QH. I know some of the old guys did ears, hard to date the stories, but I know it’s been multiple decades.
Bluey - tails are wrapped like then while a horse is working. Sets are leather, with an aluminum crupper. Not sure where the wood would have been, unless it was a small block somewhere to keep the tail aligned straight.
And tail boards are great. I’ve seen enough rubbed unset tails to wish they were in every barn. They’re really nice if you’re tacking up or grooming in the stall. It’s a great place to set brushes.
About the ears - they really look close set don’t they?
AFAIK there are two things going on, one is the illusion created by the shaven forelock and bridle path, and the other is that a lot of ASB have a similar shape to their faces, sort of long and narrow. It really shows up on the horses without facial markings or with narrow facial markings. That and half of them are chestnut. And very related.
I love those tippy ears. Even the not so tippy ears, dunno if this will come out https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=351831064850261&set=a.351829301517104.88866.100000701115270&type=3&theater
An entirely ignorant question:
Why would horses be kept in the dark? Does it make them spookier/more “up” when they finally have light enough to see what’s around them?
Ish.
There’s good and bad apples in every discipline. Saddleseat is definitely no different.
I can attest to the close-set, tipped-in ears being a Saddlebred thing, totally natural. I learned to ride on a retired Saddlebred - he was an Eventer (totally moved like a Hunter, so never did Saddleseat), and a total Schoolmaster. He had little bitty ears, set really close together, on a longgggg head. Sweetest horse you’ll ever meet, I miss him. :sadsmile:
[QUOTE=KayBee;7397513]
An entirely ignorant question:
Why would horses be kept in the dark? Does it make them spookier/more “up” when they finally have light enough to see what’s around them?
Ish.[/QUOTE]
In the one BNT Big Lick TWH stable (this was 20 years ago, mind you) that I’ve seen myself that kept the barn closed up, done for the first reason that comes to mind -so no one could see into the barn to see what the “trainers” were doing to those poor horses’ pasterns.
Saddle seat does have it’s basis from the southern plantations. Not only did the horse had to be a smooth ride, but beautiful as well- A status symbol that you could ride all day and then be proud to hitch to a buggy and have take you into town.
As with all disciplines, they change over the years.
Dressage horses aren’t being trained to make war horses and cavalry mounts anymore.
Western Pleasure horses evolved from ranch horses. They sure wouldn’t be useful to work cows. Now they are just a pleasant little ride.
And saddle seat became focused on flash instead of “easy to ride all day long”.
A good saddle seat horse could be described with the same sort of words that you’d use to describe a sports car.
Flashy.
Tons of power.
Loads of Acceleration the second you put your foot on the gas.
Good Handling.
A good saddle seat horse will be light in the bridle, and you will be able to move them with the tensing of a leg muscle. Not a dressage type of bend… but certainly accepting guidance without compromising brilliance and animation. Saddle seat horses are shown at “the edge”. Any more impulsion, animation, it would get messy- broken gaits, etc…
And many ASBs are still exceptionally smooth gaited. My aunt’s old mare had a trot you couldn’t post. Just soft.
And my old gelding started out as a Fine Harness and 5 gaited horse, went to Show Pleasure, Country Pleasure, and finally ended in hunter pleasure and dabbling in dressage. He was 100% sittable as well when he wasn’t in show horse mode.
Nevermind the feel of a horse with a nice slowgait and rack…
As far as nosemakers and attention getters go… There are a lot of people who apply them without using common sense. I made the mistake of having someone who rode and worked for a well respected (even by myself) trainer who boards at the same barn I do now offer to help me air my gelding up. It was a mistake. She had NO idea when to let off and it wasn’t good for my horse- got him rushing, and a little intimidated and not using himself. Nothing that doing it right a couple times didn’t fix though. Done right- timed appropriately, let off at the right time they are a MAJOR confidence builder and you have a horse who associates them as play and praise and is incredibly brave in a big noisy showring rather than something that scares them or blows their mind. My old mare was a total weenie to start out with. She’d see something in the showring that wasn’t right and just… stop… and wouldn’t move a foot until she’d worked it out. But once she figured out that nothing was going to really “get” her, she got a whole lot gutsier and years after retirement, just scratching my fingers over the outside of my jacket to make a scratching noise, she would stop grazing, go off in this slow motion, boingy trot, circle smaller and smaller and finally stop next to me, park out, fling her tail up, and snort and then wait to do it again. She loved it. And I would rather ride one that has been exposed to and conditioned to ear up about stimulus than one who just tunes it out until it’s something that they CAN’T Tune out.
And my friend has a NSH mare who won many NSH final titles. You can put her out in a round pen with her work bridle, side reins, and surcingle and she will ear up, wear her bridle, snort and flag and work until she’s done. and then come to you to call it a day. Done right, they learn the game, and they love the game, same as any physically challenging discipline. The horses aren’t tortured.
And the enhancements don’t make a horse something they’re not tending toward already. Dressage people work their horse to enhance what they have and get more. Jumpers work for the bigger jump, the faster time- I can gurantee my guy would rather go a big trot and swan his neck than jump a huge course. Saddle seat is the same. We take a horse whose natural inclination is to be very very upheaded, animated, high stepping and work it in a way to enhance it. And if a horse doesn’t have the physical ability to trot high or swan their neck, no amount of shoeing, stretchies, developers, bits… Is gonna make it. You could have put a big lick TWH stack on my first mare and she still wouldn’t have broken level or wore her head in a spot that would make her anything but a barely competitive country pleasure horse.
[QUOTE=red mares;7397280]
The only disciplines/uses that actually have a purpose are cow horses, Amish horses, work horses (logging, fields, etc) and a big maybe on fox hunters. Everything is else is pretty pointless, unless the point is ‘my horse is better than yours’.[/QUOTE]
You might want to add horses used for mounted police work and the Border Patrol. The Army still maintains some ceremonial mounted color guards. The Old Guard at Arlington has a Caisson Platoon. Then there are the several thousand who re-enact Artillery or Cavalry units from prior conflicts.
Your point is taken, however. Horses today are generally luxury goods/pampered pets vice real, working animals.
G.
And nowadays… dark barns are usually because… well… that’s the facility that the trainer has. Have been in dark, cavelike barns- they’re generally OLD builds. And bright airy barns- generally new builds. If somebody has a facility that is dark but safe and otherwise suitable for their needs and fits their budget in an area with clientele, well… that’s where you stay.
Have been in as many cavelike 4-H/trail riding type barns as show horse barns. And lots of the new facilities are light and airy and beautiful. Nobody who’s building a new facility is building dark, dungeonlike facilites. Heck, the last place my mom instructed was all new, airy, gorgeous and could be converted to a public iceskating rink in less than 2 days. LOL The trainer I used to work for rented a facility where there were no windows on one side. The effect was cavelike. It was that way because the person who built the barn built it that way. The horses were fine. The stalls were safe. Her next two facilities she rented? Windows in almost every single stall.
The whole “ooooh… dark barns! must be something bad going on” thing reminds me of my best friend’s brother.
At one point in elementary school the parents got called in for a conference. The school feared that he was disturbed because EVERYTHING he drew was in brown or black. Parents come in, school asks if anything is going on… finally somebody asks the kid. Know why it was all brown or black? Because that’s what’s left when everyone else picks out their colors. Nothing more sinister than being low man on the totem pole. Sometimes you use what’s available.
[QUOTE=blairasb;7397566]
A good saddle seat horse could be described with the same sort of words that you’d use to describe a sports car.
Flashy.
Tons of power.
Loads of Acceleration the second you put your foot on the gas.
Good Handling.[/QUOTE]
That is the best description I have ever heard!!!
The stacks and large pads are not good for the horses. I can take my show horses out on the trail through water in exactly the same shoes they show in (if they were wearing shoes).
And if you need a harness to hold the horse’s tail up, your discipline is valuing the wrong thing.
I can appreciate a lot of different equine disciplines and breeds. A good natural shod gaited horse is a lovely, useful animal. The saddle seat discipline unfortunately has congregated a lot of damaging practices.
David O’Connor said in one of the USEF meetings that if you’re not prepared to train and manage your horses in Central Park with an NBC camera crew documenting your every move, then it’s time to reconsider what you’re doing. I think those are words every trainer in every discipline should take to heart.
There are bad eggs in every discipline, and there are people who will support those bad eggs for the ribbon or due to ignorance. There are good eggs too.
You want to get into a corrupt training world? Start showing AMHA driving horses. I’ve never seen more vile trainers than some driving trainers (who also work with ponies). That being said, my best friend is a AMHA driving trainer who only uses natural methods. She has brought up many grand champion and world champion driving horses, but she has also had to fight against the bad eggs.
There are good eggs in Saddle Seat. I am sure of it. There are bad eggs in hunters/jumpers. No one is ever going to see eye to eye on any of it.
Then again, according to PETA we are all abusers anyway because horses are magical and need to be roaming the roads and fields free of humans.
Whatever. Point is, there are bad people everywhere, but there are also good people in every sport and people who want to make a difference.
I’m personally fascinated with ASB!
[QUOTE=Bluey;7397420]
Hey, at least it is color coordinated.
Tail harnesses I saw decades ago were out of wood and leather, best I remember and the stalls had “tail rails” to keep them from rubbing those off, as they told me.
In some western riding, where tail switching is penalized, many cut tails some, or block them while horses are showing.
It is against the rules to alter tails, stewards check that at some shows, as I hear, but if done right, it is hard to detect.
Some people will do anything to do whatever they need to do to participate, if they want to play the game with the cards given.[/QUOTE]
The tail rails are still out there. I even saw them at a county fairground.
I live in the “Saddlebred Capital of the World” and have great respect for those horses and many of the trainers. I go to watch more saddlebred shows than any other discipline and I’ve never ridden saddleseat! The social event of the summer is the saddlebred show that happens here and I look forward to it all year!
Many of the saddleseat riders would put many dressage riders or equitation riders to shame and many of them are horrifying (particularly the male trainers!) to watch. There are some amazing horses and there are some terrifying horses. But I feel the same way about the horses and riders when I go watch a hunter show or a dressage show or an event (schooling show level or Rolex level). Every discipline has scary riders, trainers and horses but every discipline also has amazing riders, trainers, and horses. I learn a lot by watching the saddlebred shows and I dream of the day that my horse is bomb-proof enough to show at a show where there is a tractor pull happening right next to the arena!
Someday I hope to be able to take some saddleseat lessons (I have the trainers picked out and everything! I just need them to not retire before I can) and look forward to showing wearing those awesome outfits and riding a really game, athletic horse!
[QUOTE=gr8fulrider;7396894]
This is not an invitation to flame but a question from someone whose entire experience has been in eventing, H/J, dressage, hunting, and a smidge of polo and who finds the videos of saddle seat equitation somewhat alien:
What is the origin and purpose of the discipline as described and demonstrated in recognized competition? [/QUOTE]
I wrote this article sometime ago regarding this topic
http://www.trot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3271
If you look at photos and art of “show horses” back before the 1920’s, there was no Saddle Seat or Hunter Seat. There was just “english”. The classes were divided for ladies or men’s and by height and sex. There were classes for hunters and park horses. There were classes for 3 and 5 gaited animals. Fine harness. Heavy harness. Roadsters. Combined ride and drive. Morgans showed with Saddlebreds and Throughbreds. Horses were part bred. There were five gaited World’s Champions whose granddams were spotted cow ponies. There were Saddlebreds shown in hand in hunter braids at Devon. While tail cutting was centuries old, and not confined to Saddlebred show horses, appearing in the ring with an obviously cut and/or braced tail was an embarrassment.
Then the styles diverged and developed through the war years into the extreme characterchures of themselves. It is nothing different than what has happened to the exhibition styles of anything be it animal, vegetable, cat, dog or horse.
[QUOTE=poltroon;7397784]
David O’Connor said in one of the USEF meetings that if you’re not prepared to train and manage your horses in Central Park with an NBC camera crew documenting your every move, then it’s time to reconsider what you’re doing. I think those are words every trainer in every discipline should take to heart.[/QUOTE]
Given the current climate, that was one of the DUMBEST statements I’ve heard in a very long time. A NBC camera crew is likely to scream abuse over well cared for carriage horses in Central Park, or is covering a group of protesters doing the same. The average individual has almost no clue about horse care. Heck people have a cow if a horse is turned out without a blanket and swear they are blindfolded if they have a fly mask. In a utopia, where the general public isn’t beyond clueless, he may be right. The reality is that merely riding a horse through Central Park is very likely to result in a mob screaming abuse.
