Saddleseat Myths...haters need to read this.

Thoroughbred1201 · August 25, 2020, 9:13am

Frankly, I’ve spent time in both worlds. I’ve seen sporthorse people decry the surgical tubing on the front hooves of a saddle horse (resistance training to build the muscles in the shoulders) yet ride in draw reins, lunge in side reins or overflex a horse in a pelham (in order to build the topline). Or decry pads and longer toes (building higher front end movement), but shoe in aluminum or actually pull shoes for a flat class (in order to get LESS front end movement).

My point? Whether something is ‘right’ or ‘abuse’ is truly what your eye is used to, what you know, and in the view of the beholder. If it isn’t what your eye is used to, then it will look ‘un-natural’. Just think! That finger you are pointing may be pointed right back at you by the person you are accusing of abuse. It’s in the eye of the beholder. (Thinking drugs in hunters these days, people?)

Careful about throwing stones and calling ‘abuse’ when you may live in a very, very fragile glass house.

NBChoice · August 25, 2020, 9:14am

Thoroughbred1201, I couldn’t have said it better. Great point.

SmartAlex · August 25, 2020, 9:14am

[QUOTE=GraceLikeRain;7401706]

It is unnatural because it is not the height at which the tail naturally rests.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, well this is not the height at which my boobs naturally rest but I don’t cry abuse because society thinks I ought to wear a bra.

And yes I know you’re going to say the horse doesn’t have a choice, but they do whip those things off as easily as I can my bra, and yes, they can even get a sheet out from under a set so I’m still not too worried that they are being unnecessarily inconvenienced.

Seriously, the barefoot freaks would have you all stop nailing steel to the hooves.

Pipkin · August 25, 2020, 9:14am

Yeah, totally natural that you need to put horsey high heels on him to ‘balance him out’… :lol:

SmartAlex · August 25, 2020, 9:14am

I don’t think that anyone said that wedge pads were natural. "The good ones go light. " And few ASB people are actual proponents of long feet or shoeing packages.

My ASBs, even the stake horses, always wore a just a leather pad and a handmade shoe. I don’t have the facilities to try putting an outrageous package on one. Those things would be popping off left and right.

Many ASBs wear a very light shoe. Any ASB peeps remember Cameo’s Angel Wings? World’s Grand Champion 3-gaited horse. She wore such a small, light front shoe. I read somewhere that Mitch taught her the Spanish Walk and that was all the “action” training she needed. I’ll have to see if I can find a photo to scan. And Redd Crabtree showed (I think it was) Santana’s Charm barefoot at Jr. League his first show. And won.

D_BaldStockings · August 25, 2020, 9:15am

And there was the story of the champion mare that went best barefoot behind…
…and when shown she would be rushed out of the ring straight back to her stall and her hind shoes tacked back on because for some reason there was a rule then about shoes required.

If one could shoe for action successfully, there would be no ‘reject’ SS horses that are sound and good tempered available to purchase; there are many.

And how about those ‘natural dressage horse shoes’?
http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2012/02/on-dressage-case-euro-rock-n-roll.html

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Y0opUl05sNg/T0A12CvDjAI/AAAAAAAAENo/M_0hcn84prQ/s1600/1+Ernest+Woodward+full+rolling+Wm+x500px.jpeg

http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2011/10/dressage-fuego-style-its-whats.html

D_BaldStockings · August 25, 2020, 9:15am

I can’t remember the mare, but there was a case of a top show horse who went best barefoot behind and they rushed her straight to her stall after classees to tack her hind shoes back on due to a rule about having to be shod to show at that time…

And then there are those natural dressage and hunter shoes…

http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2011/10/dressage-fuego-style-its-whats.html

http://www.parkerfarrierservice.com/gallery_two.html

Thoroughbred1201 · August 25, 2020, 9:15am

Or the three gaited junior horse that won the world championship stake class at Kentucky this year that was barefoot. No shoes, and his action was unbelievable.

GraceLikeRain · August 25, 2020, 9:15am

[QUOTE=SmartAlex;7402404]
Yeah, well this is not the height at which my boobs naturally rest but I don’t cry abuse because society thinks I ought to wear a bra.

And yes I know you’re going to say the horse doesn’t have a choice, but they do whip those things off as easily as I can my bra, and yes, they can even get a sheet out from under a set so I’m still not too worried that they are being unnecessarily inconvenienced.

Seriously, the barefoot freaks would have you all stop nailing steel to the hooves.[/QUOTE]

Your boobs are fat. Unless you possess some mad skills, those puppies aren’t able to lift up and down. Do they flag when you’re excited, swish when you’re irritated, and tuck under when you are cold or stressed? If not, then you are comparing apples and oranges. Determine fat placement is not the same as setting a moveably appendage that is used for communication, fly protection, etc. in a non-resting position for hours on end.

RubyTuesday · August 25, 2020, 9:15am

[QUOTE=GraceLikeRain;7402887]
Your boobs are fat. Unless you possess some mad skills, those puppies aren’t able to lift up and down. Do they flag when you’re excited, swish when you’re irritated, and tuck under when you are cold or stressed? If not, then you are comparing apples and oranges. Determine fat placement is not the same as setting a moveably appendage that is used for communication, fly protection, etc. in a non-resting position for hours on end.[/QUOTE]

Okay, I’m going to be watching now for women on the street who flag, swish or lift up and down their boobs at me, without benefit of the use of any other appendage; when I see them, I shall run like my ass is on fire, knowing that is something I will never be able to un-see! :eek:

gypsymare · August 25, 2020, 9:15am

I worked as a farrier’s helper back in 2005-2006 and one of his main clients was a very large show barn, primarily ASBs but also a couple of Morgans and I think a NSH. http://www.wentzstables.com

It was a gorgeous 50 stall barn. The number of horses in stacks at any given time was maybe about 10 or fewer. There were many in training for classes that required them to be flat shod. There were often new horses coming in from sales that had awful feet but the fellow I worked for was very good at what he did. The stack heights were pretty reasonable. Those pads come in all different heights up to about 1/2" so there were usually 2, no more than 3 flat plus a wedge pad and the hooves on top of them were well balanced and solid. Some got weights, often just on one side to compensate for uneven movement. They were small, flat lead blobs that were screwed onto the bottom most pad. Very rarely were any of them lame. There was one ancient horse with some special shoeing requirements but I think he was in his late 20’s and still packing around his elderly owner.

I don’t recall seeing more than two or three horses in tail sets ever. No one lived in chains or bands although they were used humanely during training… like resistance bands or weights for strengthening. No horse was ever purposefully frightened or hurt. They were fed like kings in huge stalls, bright and airy with other horses on all sides.

Sure it’s not as nature intended for a horse to live in a box, but if I had to live in any box, it would be there! Daily exercise and handling, always some kind of activity going on to watch and a steady supply of food.

I can’t comment knowledgeably about tail cutting. I never saw any of that. I don’t think any of it, stretching or cutting is entirely painless. The joints of the tailbone are nothing like the joints of your finger. Fingers are hinge joints. Vertebrae are gliding joints. They aren’t made to articulate that far.

quietann · August 25, 2020, 9:16am

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7402722]

And then there are those natural dressage and hunter shoes…

http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2011/10/dressage-fuego-style-its-whats.html

http://www.parkerfarrierservice.com/gallery_two.html[/QUOTE]

WRT the first (Fuego), it’s been discussed all over and I think most dressage folks would be concerned about a horse needing that sort of shoeing. There was a similar controversy with Totilas’ heart bar shoes.

The second link mostly shows corrective shoeing for horses with existing pathology. I don’t think that’s comparable to shoeing just to get “better action.”

shakeytails · August 25, 2020, 9:17am

I’ve seen several tails cut. It’s really not a big deal. Properly taken care of, it seems to cause very little discomfort to the horse. And most horses couldn’t care less about the tail set. They’re not tight, and I’ve never seen a horse wearing one that couldn’t easily lie down, get up, scratch an ear with a hind foot, etc. And if a horse is bothered by the set- they can and will get them off. I can’t imagine any horse in a set with sores or abcesses, unless the trainer is a POS. Those tails are inspected daily, and at the first sign of a rub or such the set comes off.

Shoes. Of course they’re used to increase motion. To say or imply otherwise is just ignorant. As someone else already said- “the good ones go light”. My CP horse could show in kegs, but she’s better with some weight up front along with just a bit of length. She wears kegs behind. We tried pads and more weight at the beginning of her show career- it didn’t work for her. It’s all about finding what works for that particular horse. No amount of shoes, action devices, or training will make a horse into something it’s not.

Quick story on stretchies. At my old farm I had an old broodmare/former show horse turned out in the barn yard. I was walking up through there with a set of stretchies in my hand. This mare was normally kind of aloof. She spotted those stretchies and trotted up to me, snorting and acting all big and tough, and I could swear she wanted to wear them. I obliged her and she took off trotting like she was headed for Louisville! She was so proud of herself! After a few minutes I had to ask her to stop so I could take them off, and then she looked a bit disappointed.

Blindfolded while working? Hmmm, never seen that one. Yes to blinker hoods, though. They keep the horse focused forward. Used occasionally, depending on the horse, but certainly not always.

Yes to noisemakers but they have to be used judiciously- which means not as a means to frighten the horse and not so much as to de-sensitize. The idea is to keep the horse bright and looking for stuff to be brave about. It’s fun to play with babies in the field. Shake a bag at them and watch them run off snorting and flagging their tails…and then come right back to you wanting to be “scared” again. It’s a game, and we encourage the horses to be proud of themselves and show off.

PeteyPie · August 25, 2020, 9:17am

[QUOTE=Appsolute;7397365]
I really like saddlebred horses, I have know a few and really fell in love with their personality, lots of try coupled with spunk.

That said - when I walked into my first saddle seat barn I was SHOCKED to see the horses living in tail sets like these.

And no - I will not be convinced that setting a tail like this brings no discomfort to the horse.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=red mares;7397457]
And tail boards are great. I’ve seen enough rubbed unset tails to wish they were in every barn. They’re really nice if you’re tacking up or grooming in the stall. It’s a great place to set brushes.[/QUOTE]

What is a tail board? Is it a tail set which holds the tail up as shown in Appsolute’s links?

As for the tail sets, Ouch. When you consider that the tail is an extension of the spine, it is mind-boggling that someone could be blind to the kind of pain that would cause a horse.

PeteyPie · August 25, 2020, 9:17am

I have never heard of objections to a cutback saddle. In fact, I thought it might be a good option for my Thoroughbred mare with shark fin withers. What would be the objection to such a saddle?

Deuce · August 25, 2020, 9:17am

[QUOTE=PeteyPie;7403851]
I have never heard of objections to a cutback saddle. In fact, I thought it might be a good option for my Thoroughbred mare with shark fin withers. What would be the objection to such a saddle?[/QUOTE]

I think the OP means (you know, after she started a fire and disappeared ) a lane fox style saddle - which is what is used in saddle seat (though many people call them cutbacks, most of us realize that a cutback saddle can be found in various styles). The lane fox style saddle sets a rider back a couple inches further than say, an AP saddle - and some people seem to think that this puts undue pressure on the horses kidneys (which is untrue).

And that’s all I have to add to this thread. I love saddlebreds. I love saddle seat (though I for one would be happy to see cut tails go away). But I really don’t love ignorant trolls.

SmartAlex · August 25, 2020, 9:19am

A tailboard is a plank installed like a shelf on the wall about four feet up that keeps a horse from backing up against the wall and rubbing his tail. Of course, if it is set too high for that particular horse, they just rub on the tail board. Also very handy for setting down your grooming tools.

SmartAlex · August 25, 2020, 9:19am

[QUOTE=PeteyPie;7403851]
I have never heard of objections to a cutback saddle. In fact, I thought it might be a good option for my Thoroughbred mare with shark fin withers. What would be the objection to such a saddle?[/QUOTE]

Cutback pommels are also used on side saddles. In fact I’m sure they were common place on side saddles before they were common on park saddles.

D_BaldStockings · August 25, 2020, 9:19am

It is very unusual to find any english saddle with a straight head, anymore.
Everything is semi-cutback and they don’t even state that.

D_BaldStockings · August 25, 2020, 9:19am

[QUOTE=gypsymare;7402926]
I worked as a farrier’s helper back in 2005-2006 and one of his main clients was a very large show barn, primarily ASBs but also a couple of Morgans and I think a NSH. http://www.wentzstables.com

It was a gorgeous 50 stall barn. The number of horses in stacks at any given time was maybe about 10 or fewer. There were many in training for classes that required them to be flat shod. There were often new horses coming in from sales that had awful feet but the fellow I worked for was very good at what he did. The stack heights were pretty reasonable. Those pads come in all different heights up to about 1/2" so there were usually 2, no more than 3 flat plus a wedge pad and the hooves on top of them were well balanced and solid. Some got weights, often just on one side to compensate for uneven movement. They were small, flat lead blobs that were screwed onto the bottom most pad. Very rarely were any of them lame. There was one ancient horse with some special shoeing requirements but I think he was in his late 20’s and still packing around his elderly owner.

I don’t recall seeing more than two or three horses in tail sets ever. No one lived in chains or bands although they were used humanely during training… like resistance bands or weights for strengthening. No horse was ever purposefully frightened or hurt. They were fed like kings in huge stalls, bright and airy with other horses on all sides.

Sure it’s not as nature intended for a horse to live in a box, but if I had to live in any box, it would be there! Daily exercise and handling, always some kind of activity going on to watch and a steady supply of food.

I can’t comment knowledgeably about tail cutting. I never saw any of that. I don’t think any of it, stretching or cutting is entirely painless. The joints of the tailbone are nothing like the joints of your finger. Fingers are hinge joints. Vertebrae are gliding joints. They aren’t made to articulate that far.[/QUOTE]

Gliding joint isn’t the closest description of the articulated joints in a horse’s tail and I only campared a tail to a human finger as there is no real comparative - humans don’t have tails like horses.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/body/factfiles/joints/spine_joints.shtml

http://www.rodnikkel.com/content/index.php/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/the-major-segments-of-the-equine-spine/

Ellipsoid, shallow ball and socket, or possibly saddle joints in the equine tail. This enables the large range of motion both horizontally and vertically.

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/37763956.jpg

http://northwesthorsetherapist.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/horse-bucking.jpg

http://www.frischgewaagt.com/pics/jump.jpg

http://www.colourbox.com/preview/4431210-904375-horse-playing-in-paddock.jpg

http://cache.desktopnexus.com/thumbnails/392118-bigthumbnail.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab335/lovablebug/Esklawa-trotting.jpg

http://blogberrygarden.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/horse1.jpg