[QUOTE=GraceLikeRain;7402887]
Your boobs are fat. [/QUOTE]
Gee. Thanks :o
:lol:
[QUOTE=quietann;7403312]
WRT the first (Fuego), it’s been discussed all over and I think most dressage folks would be concerned about a horse needing that sort of shoeing. There was a similar controversy with Totilas’ heart bar shoes.
The second link mostly shows corrective shoeing for horses with existing pathology. I don’t think that’s comparable to shoeing just to get “better action.”[/QUOTE]
Most horses have ‘existing pathologies’ if you want them to do any sort of high performance.
The great record setting Standardbredpacer Dan Patch wore specially designed shoes to prevent his natural hind leg swing striking his hoof against the wheel and cutting himself…
Moving better depends on the venue, and I didn’t post reining sliders; or some of the tendon and suspensory stressing shoeing of running racehorses, either…
There was no shoeing controversy for Fuego’s owner or Totilas’ owner: They used what worked best for the horse given the resulting action they desired.
So people think it was abusive?
[QUOTE=Laurierace;7395045]
Yeah, I only like MY discipline. Which is racing, dressage, stadium jumping, cross country jumping, combined training, hunter pace, paper chase, hunter breeding to name a few. All with the same horse I may add.[/QUOTE]
You forgot youth all-breed challenge - fill-in horse with a day’s notice. So I will swap that out for racing and oops! this mare was a result of saddle seat breeding, not hunter.
http://saddlesbredsarefun.com/Images/Event/New%20Event/Event%202006/Sammie%20ramp%20640.JPG
http://saddlesbredsarefun.com/Images/Event/New%20Event/Event%202006/Sammie%20into%20water%20640.JPG
http://saddlesbredsarefun.com/Images/Event/New%20Event/Event%202006/Sammie%20up%20bank%20640.JPG
Sadly deceased, and not mine. Yes, it can be done with a non-TB, too. Gotta love ALL those versatile, courageous and kind mares.
I’m still not happy about the tails but that is due to my personal experience - I’ve seen one other horse out of hundreds of Academy grade horses with the same contracted tail issue, it’s a pain for him and for me to manage his comfort.
Point is definitely made in re the shoes however - different athletic endeavors need a different shoe - I sure hope that just because Totilas uses a fancy shoe that every low level dressage wannabe doesn’t run out and demand their farrier use that though- the level of management for something like that is extremely high.
Any good ASB trainer or owner worth their salt knows that you cannot “create” high motion with shoes or gimmicks. You can wreck it for sure, but not make it. The horse has to have the correct conformation to use their joints to their fullest, and the mental motivation to do it. Absolutely, there are people who overshoe a horse hoping for more motion and it doesn’t change anything about the horse, but they leave the shoes on thinking it makes them somehow better. But the GOOD trainers - they put the MINIMUM amount of shoe/pad that the horse needs to perform at its best. And yes - it is a VERY high maintenance endeavor to have a competition Saddle Seat horse, just like any other competitive horse.
A lot of the shoeing is done to help a horse who may not have ideal conformation. Conformation can seriously affect the evenness of the legs as they move through the air. In our discipline, we have the advantage of being able to use shoes, pads, weights and angles to help them appear even while trotting. In other disciplines, if a horse wings or forges or hits their opposite leg or short-strides with one leg because it’s shorter than the other, you’re kinda stuck with an unevenly-moving horse. You do your best through conditioning and balance to fix the problem (as do we - I don’t want it to sound like we use shoes to fix everything) but shoes are one more TOOL we have in our toolbox that other disciplines do not.
The chains they wear during working are used for a similar purpose - to help with timing, as well as joint articulation. When a horse tries to “step out of” the chains he is more aware of his feet and we can use the chains to affect his timing, creating a perfectly square, cadenced trot. Again, other disciplines will use other techniques (as do we… bending, suppling, balancing, strength, etc) but there are times that nature wins that war. The chains are just one more tool to help with a possible issue. Plus the horse can hear them and a lot of horses move to “music” and have rhythm. Hearing the chains jingling helps some horses keep an even cadence. As for articulating the joints, when a horse tries to step out of the chains, he flexes his joints to their maximum. This creates a horse with a wider range of motion.
Stretchies (elastic surgical tubing) also help with timing, building strength, and joint articulation. There are many ways to build strength, and we use all of them (riding on hills, driving the horse on non-riding days, transitions, etc) but the stretchies specifically build the muscles needed to lift the leg. It is very targeted strength training that traditional training cannot address nearly as well. Also, horses will usually use their legs more with stretchies than without, so it’s a great tool to improve a horse’s range of motion.
But again - the use of chains and stretchies, or the application of weighted shoes/pads, cannot MAKE motion. If the horse isn’t built to do it, he can’t. End of story. That’s why so many ASBs flunk out of Saddlebred school. You can’t force something that isn’t there!
As for the tails, I’ve had many Saddlebreds that I had to ask the previous owner if the tail was ever cut, because I couldn’t tell (even my current horse). No scarring, the tail was perfectly straight, and the horse could clamp it down tight to their butt just like any other horse. They were all cut… but once they were loosened up and in a tailset, they went right up over their backs. In the wintertime, when the sets are off for months at a time, the tails went right back down.
I don’t really know why wearing a tailset is any more horrible than putting any other tack or blankets on a horse. The horse gets used to it and accepts it as part of their routine. If they don’t accept it, they don’t wear it. If you have a horse that destroys blankets, you try a few things to prevent it, and if you can’t, they just go naked. It’s no different with the tailset. If they won’t wear it, they don’t wear it. It’s really quite easy for a horse to get one off LOL!
Some fun shares…
Video. My current horse wearing just plain old shoes, tail not set, having fun in the arena. I honestly think he would have made a tremendous dressage horse if that was my sport of choice. Maybe I’m wrong… I’m certainly not an expert in that discipline LOL! https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152675881290542&set=vb.556685541&type=3&theater
And a young mare I used to own. I post this to show the timing of her stride… cannons aligned, working relaxed and forward. Her tail was never cut or in a set, and probably never will be. https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/t1/s720x720/563863_10150618318971784_2049218283_n.jpg
[QUOTE=ReSomething;7404526]
I sure hope that just because Totilas uses a fancy shoe that every low level dressage wannabe doesn’t run out and demand their farrier use that though- the level of management for something like that is extremely high.[/QUOTE]
I would be very interested to hear a seminar about such a shoe, seeing as how I read about it being used by Rick Redden first. Since I’m under the impression that it was used as a therapeutic shoe first, I am wondering how it made the jump to this. Be interested in hearing the seminar not because I would want to use it, but because I’d need convincing that the design is sound. Right now looking at this thing and thinking it looks like something out of medieval torture. Also wondering how, if this shoe is supposedly so great for horses under pressure from sideways torque, how has similar thinking not made the leap to human athletes yet? Surely national league teams would pay better?
[QUOTE=RubyTuesday;7404607]
Also wondering how, if this shoe is supposedly so great for horses under pressure from sideways torque, how has similar thinking not made the leap to human athletes yet? Surely national league teams would pay better?[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure if this was meant to be serious or to poke fun, but it’s tough to compare a horse’s hoof to a human foot. They are two entirely different structures and perform in different ways. A properly conditioned human foot is extremely strong and flexible on many different planes, which allow it to absorb shock and deal with various forces like torque. More often than not, the more gimmicks we put between our feet and the ground, the more prone to injury we tend to be. I wouldn’t want anything with a rocker (longitudinal or lateral) because that’s just a rolled ankle waiting to happen. I dealt with a lot of different injuries and tried a lot of fancy gimmick-y shoes before I finally started going barefoot and/or wearing flat, flexible shoes.
I don’t really buy the Fuego shoe technology either, but having just found out about it today, I feel woefully under educated.
[QUOTE=RubyTuesday;7404607]
I would be very interested to hear a seminar about such a shoe, seeing as how I read about it being used by Rick Redden first. Since I’m under the impression that it was used as a therapeutic shoe first, I am wondering how it made the jump to this…[/QUOTE]
Are you sure you didn’t mean Fuego’s shoes? Totilas’s shoes are heart-bars, which are fairly common, used (with pads) for horses that have had laminitis and some other common problems. Take a look at the link.
Oh for crying out loud.
I’m not going to comment on tailsets because I don’t understand them. And because I don’t understand them, I am unqualified to give an opinion.
But hunters absolutely shoe for movement, down to even hoof form, and choosing aluminum over steel and changing breakover. And they pull manes.
Eventers add studs and use running martingales. And they pull manes.
Dressage riders use draw reins, and Fuego’s fancy shoes, and chambons and side reins. And they pull manes.
Western disciplines use tie downs and tail nicks and big old curb bits.
If you want to find a discipline free of anything unnatural, you’re going to unfortunately have to ride your horse bareback with nothing to control it’s head, like Alex in the Black Stallion.
[QUOTE=RubyTuesday;7404607]
I would be very interested to hear a seminar about such a shoe, seeing as how I read about it being used by Rick Redden first. Since I’m under the impression that it was used as a therapeutic shoe first, I am wondering how it made the jump to this. Be interested in hearing the seminar not because I would want to use it, but because I’d need convincing that the design is sound. [/QUOTE]
The rock and roll shoe is NOT NEW. Sorry to shout, but I bring this up every time Fuego’s shoes show up in a thread, so feel the need to emphasize this.
Ric Redden is certainly not the first person to use them. These shoes have been around for well over 100 years, probably much longer, as documented in David Roberge’s book published in 1893. These designs were handed down over generations so likely were in use at least 100 years before then.
Have a look at some of the plates from Roberge’s book:
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/hfournier/library/Misc/David%20Roberge?sort=3&page=1
Every time this comes up I feel the burning need to correct the misunderstanding. Don’t ask me why … 
[QUOTE=quietann;7403312]
WRT the first (Fuego), it’s been discussed all over and I think most dressage folks would be concerned about a horse needing that sort of shoeing. There was a similar controversy with Totilas’ heart bar shoes.
The second link mostly shows corrective shoeing for horses with existing pathology. I don’t think that’s comparable to shoeing just to get “better action.”[/QUOTE]
Perhaps that is where the idea came from. Every photo on the second link shows addition to the heel with less or none to the toe.
Picture it. Kentucky, 1942. Road foundered ASB gets shoes for correction then shows incredible action and from there the world of shoe packages became the farriers oyster. Me no dummy.:lol:
horse shoes with pads have been around for alot longer than the 1940’s.
for instance, patents for new and improved horseshoe pads from 1924
http://www.google.com/patents/US1496414
and shoes covering the entire sole go back much farther in history
http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/pe_prb/i/iron_hipposandal.aspx
I do hear there are endurance competitors whose horses wear pads or hoof boots, and many horses expected to work on hard roads like police horses do the same.
book on Shoeing Standardbreds from 1916
http://archive.org/stream/balancingshoeing00moor/balancingshoeing00moor_djvu.txt
‘Perfecting a horse’s gait’ has been a farrier job since humans got involved with hoof care and iron shoes were nailed to hooves.
And this shorter article is fun
http://www.anvilmag.com/farrier/070f2.htm
Apparently you never watched The Golden Girls. Sophia: “Picture it. Sicily. 1942…”
[QUOTE=sunridge1;7406041]
Perhaps that is where the idea came from. Every photo on the second link shows addition to the heel with less or none to the toe.
Picture it. Kentucky, 1942. Road foundered ASB gets shoes for correction then shows incredible action and from there the world of shoe packages became the farriers oyster. Me no dummy.:lol:[/QUOTE]
Good point. My own horse benefited greatly from rebalancing her hooves in this way. Under-run heels and inadequate attention to keeping her hooves roughly the same length when viewed from the front caused her to develop a “mechanical” laminitis in her RF, which happens to have the weakest leg above it. She is much happier with a more “upright” foot than the previous farrier gave her. Current farrier would tell you that her hooves are tough to balance as there are competing asymmetries, plus leg conformation issues.
If this changed her action at all, it was pretty subtle and not something that would change her movement score in dressage. Her shoes are plain steel and she has protective pads and packing in front, because of the laminitis issue. But the shoeing and trimming changes were done solely for her health and soundness.
I do wonder what the purpose of extra-long hooves in saddleseat is. Sure, you can argue using weighted shoes, pads, etc. to correct a horse’s motion is “necessary” but why the long hooves? The whole “shoeing package” issue creates a financial and for some people an ethical barrier to getting involved in saddleseat. Altering a horse so much that it cannot be turned out safely would be a huge turn-off to a lot of people.
Have you noticed that the entries in “high performance” classes at shows are way down? This is certainly the case in Morgans, where park classes usually have less than 5 entries, English Pleasure might get 10 on a good day, and Hunter Pleasure is so huge that the classes are usually split (and many of the horses have action that would have been great in a Park class of 3 decades ago, and are wearing “packages” that are only slightly less extreme than those found in the “high performance” divisions.) For all the going on by certain posters here about packages “correcting” movement, a lot of these horses still wing or paddle pretty badly, and the judges don’t care one little bit as long as the trot is high.
(I’m a Morgan person, obviously, and love the old photos of pros showing their Park Morgans with plain old keg shoes, and in some cases barefoot. Much prefer that to the “above level” packages one sees today.)
Anybody remember the Tony Gonzales’ “Proper Balance Movement” fad of the late 80’s? Bozo went around teaching everyone you could “fix” bad conformation and movement by the use of “shim pads” on one but not the other foot. He also promoted a line of foam “bounce pads” for saddle fit.
More horses went to the killers after being done that way than anyone could count . . .
Beware of the travelling medicine show; most things have been tried before! :winkgrin:
Anybody remember the Tony Gonzales’ “Proper Balance Movement” fad of the late 80’s? Bozo went around teaching everyone you could “fix” bad conformation and movement by the use of “shim pads” on one but not the other foot. He also promoted a line of foam “bounce pads” for saddle fit.
I do remember that, and I remember some VETS insisting that it was the right way to go.
We are strange creatures.
[QUOTE=quietann;7406946]
I do wonder what the purpose of extra-long hooves in saddleseat is. Sure, you can argue using weighted shoes, pads, etc. to correct a horse’s motion is “necessary” but why the long hooves? [/QUOTE]
Simple. It changes the ratios of the lengths between the joints altering the movement. I’m sure there are some engineering types who could explain the physics of that, but for most horses, lengthening that leg and getting the knee higher off the ground lengthens the stride, delays the take off and adds height at the end of the stride.
Additionally, the longer hoof wall, the larger the size shoe and the more substantial the base. The hoof wall angles outward. You (hopefully) wouldn’t get a big long hoof shaped like a soup can. So if you add, say an inch, length to a horse wearing a size one shoe, now he needs a size two and so on. Again, there are people more qualified than I to explain that, but it aids in soundness and power. These are often big, substantial horses. They need a solid foundation.
[QUOTE=SmartAlex;7407311]
Additionally, the longer hoof wall, the larger the size shoe and the more substantial the base. The hoof wall angles outward. You (hopefully) wouldn’t get a big long hoof shaped like a soup can. So if you add, say an inch, length to a horse wearing a size one shoe, now he needs a size two and so on. Again, there are people more qualified than I to explain that, but it aids in soundness and power. These are often big, substantial horses. They need a solid foundation.[/QUOTE]
Again, I know only the Morgan world. Morgans as a breed tend to have tough strong hooves and many (probably a majority) go barefoot, even if they are in competition (outside the breed show circuit). These horses may not be tall, but they are big-boned. So I don’t buy that they have to have long toes so they can have better hooves. Their hooves are already better than most!
