I don’t think SmartAlex said they “have” to have long toes to have better hooves.
And on the subject of hooves and pads. I have a 15 year old gelding that has awful hooves. The only way they stay healthy and strong is to put a pad on. We have tried all kinds of other ways, but the only way is to keep a pad on him at all times.
[QUOTE=quietann;7407345]
So I don’t buy that they have to have long toes so they can have better hooves. Their hooves are already better than most![/QUOTE]
I didn’t say it made the hoof better. It makes the weight bearing surface bigger. If they don’t have good hooves, you are NEVER going to get a package to stay on, and you won’t grow a long hoof. Crappy hooves will be chipping and cracking and falling apart.
[QUOTE=SmartAlex;7407411]
I didn’t say it made the hoof better. It makes the weight bearing surface bigger. If they don’t have good hooves, you are NEVER going to get a package to stay on, and you won’t grow a long hoof. Crappy hooves will be chipping and cracking and falling apart.[/QUOTE]
OK, we are kind of going in circles here. Perhaps my initial question was a gotcha, directed toward the idea that all those theoretically good things a “package” does have nothing to do with long toes, so why add the long toes? I’m not sure that “making the hoof larger” is really so great a thing (I wish we had a farrier here!) Why not breed a bigger hoof to start with?
I guess I don’t understand the need for a package or long toes, on a horse that is going to be worked only in an arena, and usually for short periods of time. It would make more sense on a horse whose hooves were really stressed by its work. Eventers and endurance horses come to mind, yet both disciplines tend to be pretty minimalist about shoeing. Sure, eventers will get studs for X/C in bad footing, but it’s mostly for better grip so they don’t injure themselves.
My old-old farrier was a Morgan person who did both – show packages and sport horse shoeing. She was an expert, and I’m sure that her experience with “packages” helped her with a lot of the more therapeutic sports horse shoeing she did.
[QUOTE=quietann;7407578]
I guess I don’t understand the need for a package or long toes, on a horse that is going to be worked only in an arena, and usually for short periods of time. It would make more sense on a horse whose hooves were really stressed by its work. [/QUOTE]
The long toes and packages are added first and foremost to change the mechanics of stride. The increased weight bearing area and heel support are the benefit which makes the longer toe feasible without undermining your soundness. One could argue that the extreme high trot and rack at speed of a Saddlebred are fairly stressful. Historically, the gaited classes could go one for well over an hour. Today’s show horses may only show for 10-15 minutes, but some of those gaited horses are jogging many miles a day and are very fit. Eventers and Endurance horses are making extreme physical efforts, but the expectations of for their range of movement are very different.
I believe that breeders do breed for good bone and hooves. There are some bloodlines that I believe to be lacking. But my own horses have always been chosen for hooves and legs that would do any breed proud. My current horse has a nice rugged size two hoof which receive frequent compliments from farriers and casual observers. He has been barefoot behind for about 5 years and goes barefoot up front in the winter even on gravel.
I think he moves nicest and the most bold when he is at the end of his shoeing cycle and has nice length of toe but then I prefer a higher rounder stride and not a sweepy “daisy cutter” stride like he has when he is freshly reset or barefoot.
[QUOTE=quietann;7406946]
I do wonder what the purpose of extra-long hooves in saddleseat is. Sure, you can argue using weighted shoes, pads, etc. to correct a horse’s motion is “necessary” but why the long hooves? The whole “shoeing package” issue creates a financial and for some people an ethical barrier to getting involved in saddleseat. Altering a horse so much that it cannot be turned out safely would be a huge turn-off to a lot of people.[/QUOTE]
I am by no means an expert in Saddlebred shoeing, but my understanding for the reason for the long toes (and the wedges/show packages) is that it changes (lengthens) the breakover time. With the longer toes, the horse has to lift his knees up higher in order for his hooves to clear the ground. This is analogous to a human wearing diving fins. When you have the fins on, you have to lift your knees up much higher in order for you to walk. Now imagine that you have wedged heels underneath those fins, and you will have to lift your knees up even HIGHER in order to get enough clearance to walk. (You can try this yourself if you feel like making yourself look really goofy…stand on your tip toes and pretend you have fins on. You will have to lift your knees REALLY high in order to walk.) So in a discipline where high motion is desirable, long hooves and show packages seem to follow since they increase the breakover time and help increase the horse’s motion.
All that being said, if the horse doesn’t have some natural motion and athleticism, no amount of show packaging is going to give that horse extreme artificial motion. I do love Saddlebreds because they are so smart and game, but I also think it’s time to consider changing some of the traditional practices.
On a lighter note, I was once at a Saddlebred horse show with some non-horse people, and a very fashion-oriented woman saw the quite large show package/wedges on a stalled horse, and commented “Oh, this horse must be a girl because she’s wearing wedges!” (The horse was a gelding.)
FWIW, I think sometimes feet are grown too long because either the owner does not want to shell out the $$ for a reset at an optimal time, or is afraid to do a reset too close to an upcoming show.
I had two saddlebreds when I was a kid. Kept them both till the day they died.
They were terrifically versatile and willing horses. I started out showing pleasure and three gaited. My three gaited mare was plain shod and she won. Her motion was all natural. Wanted to go hunting with a friend. She had never jumped a fence in her life, but tally ho and she jumped everything in front of her on the hunt. Yes, her tail was set, but she only wore the set a day before the show, not all the time. Both horses were turned out. Jumped and evented my gelding when I got bored of showing pleasure. They really are nice horses, not much different from thoroughbreds in their personality. Just like any breed, they shine if you let them.
[QUOTE=sdlbredfan;7407746]
FWIW, I think sometimes feet are grown too long because either the owner does not want to shell out the $$ for a reset at an optimal time, or is afraid to do a reset too close to an upcoming show.[/QUOTE]
I’m sorry, but no. You cannot grow a horse’s hooves “too long” in order to avoid a reset; the horse will be out of his shoes.
I’ve shod horses at barns where there were also saddle seat saddlebreds in residence wearing heavy shoes on very very long (like 7" long toes) feet… Yes, the extra weight DOES increase animation and I’m pretty sure the trainers realize that.
And having shod a retired saddlebred whose tail dock stuck straight up and then curled over like a pug’s, yes they do unnatural things to those tails to get the right look. That horse’s tail was broken and set.
I’ve also shown non-gaited saddlebreds in dressage. They’re very sensitive like TBs. Not psycho. They do do stuff to them to make them ‘wild eyed’ for the show ring. (Rakes run down the stall bars, firecrackers, blindfolds). Maybe not at the ‘nice’ barns…
Jennifer
[QUOTE=knight_rider;7407791]
I’m sorry, but no. You cannot grow a horse’s hooves “too long” in order to avoid a reset; the horse will be out of his shoes.[/QUOTE]
Depends on the hoof quality and how the shoes are nailed. I saw one set of horses who got neglected for so long that while it appeared that they had thrown their shoes, the reality of it was that the overgrown hoof had actually encased the shoes as it overgrew. The nippers clinked on the metal inside while the hooves were being trimmed.
[QUOTE=quietann;7404761]
Are you sure you didn’t mean Fuego’s shoes? Totilas’s shoes are heart-bars, which are fairly common, used (with pads) for horses that have had laminitis and some other common problems. Take a look at the link.[/QUOTE]
Fuego’s shoes. Am very familiar with heart, straight and egg bar shoes. As for the human vs. horse comment, it was a little bit of both serious and poking fun. I really would like to hear the arguments of why this shoe for this sport though, and why if it works in this application, it hasn’t jumped to some sort of technology for humans, whether it would really work for people or just be trendy snake-oil.
As for who had it first, the guys 100 years ago aren’t here to lecture or apply previous context with modern learning to the whys of the use of this shoe. So would still be curious to hear a modern seminar on it.
[QUOTE=RubyTuesday;7407823]
Depends on the hoof quality and how the shoes are nailed. I saw one set of horses who got neglected for so long that while it appeared that they had thrown their shoes, the reality of it was that the overgrown hoof had actually encased the shoes as it overgrew. The nippers clinked on the metal inside while the hooves were being trimmed.[/QUOTE]
I wasn’t referring to horses that have neglected hooves.
[QUOTE=knight_rider;7407791]
I’m sorry, but no. You cannot grow a horse’s hooves “too long” in order to avoid a reset; the horse will be out of his shoes.[/QUOTE]
Knight_rider, I have seen it happen. Too long means = length of toe, overall height of hoof from coronet band to shoe.
[QUOTE=RubyTuesday;7407823]
Depends on the hoof quality and how the shoes are nailed. I saw one set of horses who got neglected for so long that while it appeared that they had thrown their shoes, the reality of it was that the overgrown hoof had actually encased the shoes as it overgrew. The nippers clinked on the metal inside while the hooves were being trimmed.[/QUOTE]
OMG - that is abuse! Holy moley…that is far worse than anything I have seen.
[QUOTE=sdlbredfan;7407892]
Knight_rider, I have seen it happen. Too long means = length of toe, overall height of hoof from coronet band to shoe.[/QUOTE]
To wit, you stated that, “I think sometimes feet are grown too long because either the owner does not want to shell out the $$ for a reset at an optimal time, or is afraid to do a reset too close to an upcoming show.”
I understand what toe length means. But “too long” goes beyond the $/time for a reset; “too long” is months in the making, in the context of this thread.
I rode saddle seat on morgans. My horse didn’t have weighted shoes or long toes. He got turned out regularly and got to be a horse. We did a couple of A shows when they opened up the Classic pleasure divisions. No we didn’t win it wasn’t his fault it was operator error.
I loved riding saddle seat but switched to dressage. I want to get horse #2 and get another morgan. Do sport horse classes.
ThirdCharm, I beg to differ about the tails being broken. I’m trying very hard to find a detailed anatomy of the tail online, but my old guy has one of those tails that stick straight out and curl under like a pug’s, only his tail can be straightened using two hands, carefully. So it’s not broken and set there, what they’ve done on him, by accident or design, was sever the clamping tendon, I can’t lower his dock down to cover his anus one handed and I haven’t tried leaning into it, HE can’t clamp his tail at all, when he tries it curls a little more. Halfway down the dock they severed the lifting tendons, so his tail is permanently lifted yet permanently curled. His sideways “swish” would be good if there was anything there to swish - I’ve contemplated having ALL the tendons severed on the bottom half of his dock so that section would move around. Possibly I could do something with a fake tail, but the crook would most likely get in the way of a nice limp swishable fake tail.
I would bet that the nerves of the depressor coccygis (3, hard to make out) were damaged and that is why it is paralytically contracted rather than being severed and limp. Possibly there are other (multiple) insertion points on the dock and the nick was done too high, who knows. But in the old guy’s case it is not broken and healed like that, it’s a case of differential tension on tendons.
You know since I’ve had broken bones that were reset and those that were not, what the hell is the difference if people say broken or cut. Depending on the pain of either would be the determining factor on which is worse. A break can heal marvelously without intervention as long as the tendons or ligaments are not damaged. As far as heal time and pain on a damaged tendon, I have that going on right now, I’d take the break any day. So why are people SO offended by “they break the tail”? As if cutting is better?
[QUOTE=Lilykoi;7407788]
I had two saddlebreds when I was a kid. Kept them both till the day they died.
They were terrifically versatile and willing horses. I started out showing pleasure and three gaited. My three gaited mare was plain shod and she won. Her motion was all natural. Wanted to go hunting with a friend. She had never jumped a fence in her life, but tally ho and she jumped everything in front of her on the hunt. Yes, her tail was set, but she only wore the set a day before the show, not all the time. Both horses were turned out. Jumped and evented my gelding when I got bored of showing pleasure. They really are nice horses, not much different from thoroughbreds in their personality. Just like any breed, they shine if you let them.[/QUOTE]
I would love to go back to these days. Thank you for sharing your experience!
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