safety vest and where you are on the trail

[Cartfall]

A woman in her 50s here in central FL recently (last weekend) has an incident we all fear with the outcome we all fear. A very experienced, award winning distance rider was out riding with a friend on Greenway trails when they evidently roused a swarm of ground wasps. Hope;s horse went into a bucking fit when it was repeatedly stung. She came off and could not rise, but felt no pain. Her buddy stayed with her, called 911 and it took 2 hours for the EMTs to find them. Hope was airlifted out to Shands hospital. She has a severed spine and the prognosis is she will never walk again.

She remains very positive, strong in her faith and support from her loving husband and many many horse friends.

That said, there has been a huge discussion among the distance riders and drivers about what we need to do to make our sport more safe. After my flying lesson last year with the bear (where I was very very lucky), I have been batting around wearing my safety vest that I wear in CDEs for plain old trail driving or competiting. Many of the riders are looking at the new air vests with the tether to the saddle.

I know many of the women I ride and drive with have talked about vests but we have sort of looked at them like folks did when helmets were first introduced for the pleasure rider. As we age, we just don;t bounce any more.

We don;t know if a vest may have made any differnce in Hope’s case, but if there is the slightest chance, why not?

So the next time I am on a horse or in my cart, there will be vest on this girl.

The other thing that is being strongly looked at is a way for folks to report to EMTs where they are. We have so many many horse trails in our state, many of the forests have over 40 or 50 miles of trail. Some over 100. A GPS doesn;t help all that much evidently. There is some discussion about special markers at intersections or color coded loops.

Hope has been quoted to say she is glad that folks are looking at ways to keep safe or improve a way to find folks who are down and hurt. What a trooper. Her very good friend was experiencing much guilt that she could not do more for her friend but stay with her. What a saint to be there at Hope’s greatest time of need. Hope kept telling her friend, don;t worry I am not in pain, I cannot feel anything. Breaks your heart.

So folks when you get in your cart or on your horse, consider all safety possible. And keep your witts about you so you can tell someone how to find you if needed.

[horsegeeks]

How horrible to hear about. My thoughts are with Hope.

Neither Kenny or I drive without helmets. I’d wondered about safety vests too. But I don’t participate in any type of 3-Day eventing and know very little about them … how much protection do they really offer? Are they uncomfortable to wear? Are they hot in the summer?

I’d thought about getting one for myself … but I didn’t want to get one without knowing more about them (Particularly at $250+ a vest!)

Could anyone give me a place to go for information, or tell me about their experiences with the safety vests?

[Dreag823]

Wow. , my thoughts are with Hope. Have her family contact me if they want when they get ready for the Rehab phase, I work at Shands Rehab Hoapital ( Ortho focus not spinal)
I’m a helmet gal, all the time, no exceptions. I drive alone, so will be interested in the safety ideas

[JoanR]

I was at a 3-day event and there was a booth for the new vests that act as “air bags” by inflating when you unexpectedly leave the saddle. I spoke to the rep about whether they had done any thinking about those of us who drive, and I got a follow-up e-mail from them. They say you can put an attachment on your carriage and attach the string of the vest to it. Unfortunately, I am not sure how they would work for driving as it seems you might “leave the carriage” too close to the ground and get the deployment of the air vest too late to do you any good if the carraige overturns or you get tossed out. There is the added factor that many people find thge need toi get out and fix something and I think I would probably forget to detach myself and have the thing blow up when I did not need it. In any case, the rep suggested I try one of their “test vests” and I may do that. There are probably a lot of drivers better suited to doing this type of test, and they may well be doing it. I know a lot of people using the regular vests in marathon and that they are required of driver and navigator at higher levels. I wonder how much they actually help in an accident.

Cartfall, my best wishes to your poor friend. They are doing some amazing things medically these days. Maybe the original diagnosis is wrong.

[Thomas_1]

Dreadful accident. Very unusual too to have a spinal injury with a carriage accident.

Do you know how it happened: Was she pitched forward and out? Did she hit something?

I’d have thought if you really wanted to wear a body protector that the traditional sort would have been better. Though it must be appreciated that they’re designed for a throw forward.

In terms of ppe, I always wear a hard hat and steel toe capped boots. I never drive unaccompanied. I take landranger 2 1/2 inch to the mile ordnance survey maps and a compass out if I’m driving long distance where I don’t know. Though I’ve not done that sort of driving for some time now. Also there’s a first aid kit in the spares box. Perhaps more importantly, I and my staff are all trained first aiders and first responders.

[hitchinmygetalong]

Thomas, I believe the OP was talking about someone who was out RIDING, not driving. She is discussing the use of safety vests and their place in hopefully preventing spinal injuries for both riders and drivers.

I see the vests as more of a protection to your ribs and spleen. I seems to me that some spinal injuries aren’t necessarily from blunt force but from the torque your spinal column has to deal with when you have a twisting fall, or the crushing injury if you land on your butt. I’m not sure a vest will protect you from neck injuries, either, but I done too much research on them. I need to start reading, I guess.

[tollertwins]

FYI…showing the ‘competitor’s’ vest deploying from somebody falling off the back of a driving rig.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpPp50zBGwQ

I don’t drive - but have recently bought one of these because 2 people I know broke a whole pile of ribs in ‘freak’ accidents. Don’t protect from everything, and the eventing guys are really adamant about not protecting from the horse falling on top of you, but I don’t intend to be in that type of situation.

Also - for this model - you can get additional back and chest armor.

[Drive_NJ]

Just a reminder… The blow up vests are not a choice INSTEAD of the regular vest. They are IN ADDITION TO them.

[JoanR]

You’re kidding! Two vests! I bet that is pretty uncomfortable in the hot weather. I never jumped or evented, so I never did the vest thing. That certainly sheds another light on the whole issue.

[CDE_Driver]

[QUOTE=Drive NJ;5176086]
Just a reminder… The blow up vests are not a choice INSTEAD of the regular vest. They are IN ADDITION TO them.[/QUOTE]

Yep, I was going to mention that!

[tollertwins]

They are defo in addition for xc…depends on how you plan on crashing, I think…

[Cartfall]

I think the two vest thing is for 3 day events byUSET rules? That is what I have heard somewhere.

I believe some of the local CDE drivers are using the air vests.

I personally have a Tiperary that I have worn and it does add warmth. I never had it ride up. Very comfortable. Haven;t worn it in the summer, but with the new dry moisture wicking shirts out there,there may be hope. Give me this winter to get used to it and then I will answer you quesion next spring.

Andrea, she will be going to Leesburg for rehab-- not sure when. Her name is Hope Bass, so if you are up at shands, please pop in and see her. She is ahorse person and very friendly. Thanks for your offer. I haven;t emailed her as she is more an acquaintance than close friend.

Just some belated kudos to her friend who was with her during the accident—she won Grand this past weekend at a CTR.
Just a little good in her life after the hell she has been through.

[MSP]

Why didn’t the cell phone GPS help in locating? Thats kind of what I was always counting on. I never ride with out my cell phone on my arm. Then again the first time I called 911 from my house it took them 45 minutes to show up. They have a better plan now!

Not sure if this applies to wasp but I know bees will ping you as you approach too close to their nest. Its a warning for you to back off! So if you are riding and bees start to fly into you turn around!

I must have missed the bear story, did you run into one on the trail? I would have died!

I hope she heals better than expected, good that she has a positive attitude.

[Cartfall]

[QUOTE=MSP;5180640]
Why didn’t the cell phone GPS help in locating? Thats kind of what I was always counting on. I never ride with out my cell phone on my arm. Then again the first time I called 911 from my house it took them 45 minutes to show up. They have a better plan now!

Not sure if this applies to wasp but I know bees will ping you as you approach too close to their nest. Its a warning for you to back off! So if you are riding and bees start to fly into you turn around!

I must have missed the bear story, did you run into one on the trail? I would have died!

I hope she heals better than expected, good that she has a positive attitude.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your well wishes. I am unsure why the GPS did not work for the EMTs but they were lead in by some knowledageable horse folks.

The bear story --short and quick. 24 miles into a 27 mile CTD, we in the front of about 3 riding horses and maybe 3 carts strung out over .1 of a mile. Trucking along at about 8-10 mph. About 30 feet in front of us, a bear runs across the trail. Trail is about 10 feet wide. Zanzer makes a 180 degree turn taking the cart with him before my mind can even register bear. I unfortunately continued straight forward, getting flying lessons. Landed on my face but never dropped those lines, yelling whoa at the top of my lungs. expected to get drug but Zanzer nailed that halt. By then folks were there to help me.

Nothing hurt but my pride.

[Yip]

Oh, I am so sorry to hear this! I’ll begin adding Hope to my prayers. I wonder if she’s still in shock. I’ll pray for her health and her comfort.

About the vests. I had never thought of wearing one but will be interested in learning more about it. I am assuming that once deployed, the vest can be reused? I would hope? I never ride or drive w/o my helmet. Easy habit to learn and I would go back home immediately if I ever forgot it. I did just have to ride on a string ride 2.5 hrs. in Sept. w/o a helmet. There wasn’t a minute I wasn’t conscious of it not being there.

Yip

[Thomas_1]

Are you already wearing a standard back protector as the norm?

Don’t forget that their use is really only approved for equestrian competition when they’re worn with a standard body protector. That’s for a reason. You need to consider that.

So it means you have to wear a standard BP and then an air vest on top of that.

With carriage driving you’d be seeking to protect yourself not just from the first impact. In fact I’d say that rather than the first impact, it’s from being run over by the carriage if you’re thrown out.

You tend not to be thrown off as quickly and often lower than if you’re thrown directly from the horse and it’s my opinion that an air vest would need to have a faster inflation speed.

I’d personally have thought that if you were seeking to protect your ribs, back and internal organs, that it would be preferable to start with a standard body protector.

If you aren’t used to a standard BP already then you may well find all that extra bulk tricky for some time till you get comfortable with it. Then you’d have the air vest on top of that.

Appreciate too that you have to be comfortable with it. You’re going to be sitting on a seat with a backrest behind you.

It’s always quite tricky finding a BP that you are truly so comfortable with that you’ll regularly and routinely wear it when you don’t have to. If it’s not comfortable then it will just be left at home.

I’ve had to wear BP’s over my lifetime when doing competition and as such I’m used to them and have found a couple that are relatively comfortable. But I don’t wear them all the time.

When doing ridden work then it’s just when doing challenging cross country over solid jumps.

When driving, just for whizzing round cross country doing obstacles and trees at speed. Or if backstepping for someone doing that.

Trust me over the decades as BP’s have developed I’ve probably tried most of them in the quest to find something SO comfortable that I’ll not be discouraged from wearing it. It really is difficult finding one that truly suits you and it tends to be a trial and error thing that folks get very opinionated about and because they really are a matter of personal preference.

What suits one person often doesn’t suit another. Furthermore they don’t come cheap and you could spend a lot of money to find something so uncomfortable that you won’t wear it. Appreciate that a good high standard BP comes in at about £120 and then an equestrian standard fast inflation speed air vest is a further £400 so that’s a total of over £500 ($800). Your prices might vary but I’m thinking that from what I know it’s pretty much comparable.

I have a Racesafe vest which is my standard BP: like a jacket and a zip at the front and little block pads so it’s flexible and it’s lightweight and it’s not uncomfortable when you’re up against a back rest on a seat. It’s a design I personally get on with. There’s a lot of BP’s I don’t get on with though. My tack room is testament to that!

My air vest is a “Hit Air”. I can’t and don’t ever wear that carriage driving though. For me the lower back protection and the shape of it which is specifically designed to protect your tail bone in a ridden fall just isn’t comfortable when carriage driving where you’re on a seat and with a back rest.

I’d suggest that if you’re really serious about wearing a BP to drive, then you need to borrow and try some first otherwise you could find yourself with an expensive piece of kit just gathering dust.

[Thomas_1]

I came back because it occurred to me that I was very rude in not enquiring about the progress of the injured lady that Cartfall first posted about.

Do you know how she’s progressing?

Then I caught this:

[QUOTE=tollertwins;5175964]
FYI…showing the ‘competitor’s’ vest deploying from somebody falling off the back of a driving rig.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpPp50zBGwQ

I don’t drive - but have recently bought one of these because 2 people I know broke a whole pile of ribs in ‘freak’ accidents. Don’t protect from everything, and the eventing guys are really adamant about not protecting from the horse falling on top of you, but I don’t intend to be in that type of situation.

Also - for this model - you can get additional back and chest armor.[/QUOTE] Do watch carefully as it demonstrates some of the points I was attempting to make.

For that particular fall it did absolutely nothing.

They’re not designed to protect for a fall backwards. And it didn’t. He landed on his backside and you can even see that the lower portion of the vest that is supposed to protect the coccyx flipped up out of the way so he got to land full on his backside!

I’m VERY surprised that’s being used as an example of what they do at all. It’s merely an example of one deplying. It’s not an example of one making a difference at all in a fall. He didn’t even land anywhere on it!

As it happens that’s also the air vest I have and that I mentioned in my posting above. Perfectly good for riding. I’m not convinced at all that it’s going to do anything to protect a groom dropping backwards off a backstep. I’d have thought that was a case if anything for a standard BP. That might also not do much for that sort of fall but at least it’s a heck of a lot cheaper!

The real risk to a groom when they drop off is broken ankle/lower leg as they land heavily from a moving object to static ground. Hence good supportive boots (steel toe caps and protection for the ankles).

If the groom is tipped off as the carriage tips then he might get smacked in the ribs by the carriage and then a standard BP may well be his friend. But in those cases the carriage goes the way you’re going and the air vest BP won’t deploy.

[Drive_NJ]

Cartfall

How IS your friend doing? Improving I hope?

I think you mentioned not being able to get a GPS read to find her for quite a while.

I was chatting with our Barn Owner who is an EMT and she said this can be a big problem with large tracts of trails in openspace. Even with an accident in a ring or field, best practice is to send someone to the road to lead the emergency people to the right place. Also best practice IF you know most direct way out and back in to a road you can ID for emergency people.

In this case it could have been a plan to call out to someone who could meet EMTs at the road and lead them in to you. If you can’t get a call out, it IS still often best practice to get the help from the road to the injured person even if it means leaving them alone for a while. Usually YOU don’t have the skill to really manage and then transport so you need to get the EMTs to the injured party.

That’s why some “come and drives” now often have a ‘control’ person like an event that knows the property and can take your emergency call and get help to the right place.

Here’s hoping the cell phones work on such a large tract of land.

Just a thought

[Cartfall]

Sorry I have been absent lately–actually been out riding my own horses again after a long hiatus.

And I have been wearing my tipperary eventing vest (not that I have ever evented). I do not intend to purchase the air vest. They are just two expensive for my budget and two vests here in FL would be unbearable in the heat. The weather has cooled just enough that I can stand the vest. It is comfortable enough in the saddle.

On to Hope, she has been moved to a physical therapy unit closer to her home in Leesburg. She is in rehab 6 days a week and rests on Sunday. She has been given a computer and is now starting to email the SEDRA yahoo group. There are many threads offering her prayers, help, ideas for benefits for her etc. She continues to be upbeat and positive (which I repect her for so very much).

There is a movement afoot with the particular state property she was hurt in. They are having meetings with horse, bike, emts, forestry --all to find a way to better find folks who are hurt. I do not know why the emts could not find her using GPS --not even sure the gals had enough savvy to give GPS coordinates to the 911 folks. They are looking as all sorts of ideas to develop something for a way to find hurt riders/hikers, etc.

Thomas, you are forgiven!!!

I have not driven lately-- hope to this next week and I will wear my vest.

Have gotten a few strange looks but you know, I am very comfortable in my vest. Most folks say they understand.

[goodhors]

There is a new vest that is supposed to keep you cool, which has been spoken of by folks who wear protective vests all day. Sorry, not sure what the name is for the cool vest.

Could be an idea for the “warm” days in your southern area, if you wear the protective vest often.

If you are shopping, read labels, get the SEI or ASTM approved models, BETA approved for the European makers. Tipparary makes several models of protective vests. Some are approved, but their most popular Eventer model vest with laced sides is NOT Approved. People buy them anyway, but you need to KNOW that when shopping. Check for measurements, both around and from top to bottom for back length. A short-backed person will have problems with the longer tail pushing vest up around their ears when seated. Some vests are less stiff, so you end up seated on the tail, which can be uncomfortable too. Some vests can have the protective foam tails trimmed shorter for comfort. Some sellers will customize the vest pieces to your measurements, but those will cost more.

The devil is ALWAYS in the details, you have to ask MANY questions. I made a list when I was vest shopping, to prevent me forgetting to ask. Some women find the bust measurement to be quite confining when vest is fastened up. Sometimes a men’s model will fit or measure to fit you better. I want the zipper covered, velcro adjustments for fit of pieces, which helps personalize vest to you better. Easy velcro changes to fit over sweater or coats in seasonal riding. Zipper is for easy on and off, once fitted. If maker says 2" adjustment between sizes, BELIEVE them when you order.

Daughter had an Aerowear, was a very nice vest. Took a little time to warm up the foam after putting it on, so vest was not so stiff. Did get a bit warm on our 80F days with a hunt coat under at shows. However it just was too long-backed if she was just sitting, not in jumping position. She is very short-backed. We sold it on, fit that lady perfectly so she loves it. Son had an Approved Tipparary when he was in Pony Club, was a nice vest too. He got a lot of use from it. Foam came out of covers for washing easily.

I would call on any vest I was thinking of buying, talk to a person. Many internet sites do not give all the crucial details, you have to ask. They don’t even say if vests are Approved! Shop around, same vest can be more at some places.

The phone GPS problem is going to be difficult to solve in many locations. Are your phones even set to give the nearest location tower to emergency personnel? You do have to manually set the cell phone for that in Tools setting, learned this from a womens group discussion. Was in relation to a kidnapping. People calling phone made the towers mark nearness, as phone progressed away from original location, so Police could track the phone. Not an exact fix, but to the nearest tower location, which was helpful.

This is why when you call 911, you MUST STAY ON the line with a cell phone to answer questions or the 911 Operator has NO CLUE about your physical location!! This is unlike a land line with phone cables, which WILL pinpoint your physical location to send emergency persons to.

Hope the physical therapy is helpful to your friend. Being aggressive about it, daily work, can bring better results.