In my opinion, if x-rays are completed beforehand, that might speed up a sale transaction. However, I also agree that most potential buyers would choose to use their own vet. Also, as I have been advised, the buyer pays for x-rays if they have not already been completed. I guess, if you do not want any surprises, you could go ahead and have the x-rays conducted, however, if it were me, I would wait for a prospective buyer to choose to x-ray and they would bear the cost. I was considering purchasing a horse who had x-rays done in March of 2007. I still chose to have x-rays repeated by my own vet. So the x-rays conducted earlier in the year, paid by the owner, were not taken into consideration by me.
what to doâŠ
I have been in the midst of an xray adventure this last year. I have a very fun 4 yo gelding who was ready to show. He had a number of potential buyers and when he got to the vetting they were not even going to xray him as they knew the history of the colt, knew the trainer, trusted we were honest with the history and he was a great fit for a competitive teenager. On the day of the vetting he didnât pass a flexion in spite of being working sound. We were all surprised. He was reghularly out in a pasture of young geldings who played all the time, he was not wrapped in cotton. Since then he has passed flexions with no trouble but on that day he was off.
I xrayed and he was positiveâŠan inconsequential lesion on the hock in question but a flap on the other hock that may someday cause a problemâŠthen again it may not. The potential buyers found another horse and the xrays have stopped a number of very enthusiastic potential buyers. He would have been entirely suitable for nearly all of them. So he is still on the market and I am in a position to offer him to a underhorsed competitive junior rider who is having a ball with him doing all the things the prospective buyers wantedâŠbut I am paying boardâŠhe is sound and has remained soâŠhe has moved up to working on 1st level to show this season. He has cliniced with Hokan ThornâŠbut I still own him. Honestly he is fun to watch, he is happy as a horse can be, he is progressing and perhaps someday he will find his buyer. Until then he and his junior are galloping around the snow covered field barebackâŠgreat guy.
Now I need to sell horses to breed horses so I have put my foundation mare on the market but I xrayed her first and fortunately she is clean. If she werenât she would have stayed in training but I would have been wondering what I did to desrve such a fate.
In this process I have learned that neither vets or buyers(or their trainers) or sellers have any idea what these positive xrays on sound horses really mean. The vets donât want to commit to a yeah or a nay on a horse with positive xrays, they just say the lesion is there. I had a friend go through a sale process with one horse and two buyers and each had a different vet. The first buyerâs found two issues. They stopped the sale. The second buyerâs vet found two DIFFERENT potential problemsâŠsame horseâŠwithin three days of each other. That buyer went ahead with the sale.
These vettings are not scientific processes. The xrays are so clear now days they all see things in detail we never saw before. The truth is we have been riding these horses for many years without knowing they had lesions and flaps and chips and the majority stayed sound through long working lives. The only horses we xrayed were lame horses and then we might guessâŠyup, that could be the problem. It is a different world and people are paying for perfection not trainingâŠperfectly trained isnât as important as pefectly clean xrays. So I proceed with my gelding and use him like the old days and see if he ever has a problem. I will xray him every spring to see if there is deterioration and keep having fun with him. PatO
what about selling horses with chips removed?
During the process of having a positive xray we have to deal with its consequenceâŠdo we remove the flaps, chips, or lesions if the horse is sound but needs to be sold?
Does removing the lesions solve the problem for buyers or have you a new problem for buyersâŠHave they the courage to buy a horse who has had SURGERY to remove the lesions?
The vets have said the surgery would have no potential for damageâŠremove the lesions and youâre good as new. I operate under the idea of âdo no harmâ I have a sound horse. Do I risk infection or injury in layup or any other surgical complication when I have a sound horse?
I have a complete guarantee on my horse and would pay for surgery if it was ever necessaryâŠthis of course makes people more suspicious. I am lucky I can afford to keep him but I canât afford to keep him and keep breeding in any glorious wayâŠbreed oneâŠsell one. 'Tis a puzzle wrapped in a delema surrounded by a conundrum. PatO
Freinds of ours have three horses, one mare fractured her splint bone when she was five, which since repaired without consequence. She has failed three pre-purchase vettings on the basis of the x-ray results. The mare has since gone on over the last eight years and competed CSI**** with too many wins to list and is now 13 with a succesful international career and continues to go on as a speed horse at 1.50 and 1.60 classes. The other two have an ocd lesion that is not worthy of operating, these horses will never pass pre purchase examination x-rays yet they too are competing at CSI *** and **** at the age of 8 and 10 with oddles of scope left to continue in competition. Thankfully the owner does not need to sell the horses and can enjoy their success.
As time passes Iâm becoming more and more sceptical of x-ray results and other than discovering serious navicular changes and degenerative joint disease I feel too many buyers are put off by vets projective diagnosis of x-rays that do not read 100% and as a result too many good horses are being rejected because of it, when they are fit healthy and sound. Understandably when the horses are being sold at $150000 plus buyers are hesitant but sometimes common sense should come into play and buyers should remain more open minded especially when leading orthpeadic vets will often advise that even level 3 x-ray horses can remain sound until the end of their days and the whole picture should be taken into consideration.
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There are a couple of ways I address the issuesâŠ
First, I have all the x-rays taken at a teaching hospital where they have the best equipment. Second, I have them read by experts, folks that have looked at literally thousands of them, so I feel pretty confident in the findings.
And yes, I have had a little chip in a front ankle removed on the adivce of a very prominent veterinarian, after he told me that the chip would likely never bother the horse. The reason? It would always show up on an x-ray and Iâd be forever answering questions.
So, while I agree with the poster that talked about todayâs digital technology letting us see many more things than before, I also think that it leaves a lot less up to interpretation.
Again, I like x-rays BEFORE I sell my 2 or 3-year olds because I like to know what Iâm talking about, it gives the client something they can send to their vet before they take any additional radiographs, and it also provides a baseline for any future developments.
Just my 2 cents worthâŠ
Unfortunately, people in this country want perfection. Even with a teaching hospital doing the x-rays and interpretation, they have to âdiscloseâ that there is a chip - even if it will never move because it is very small and well embedded in tissue. Buyers hear âchipâ and run screaming from the room. With digital x-rays, they are finding âchipsâ that are smaller than a grain of rice. The buyer says, âI donât see it Docâ. So the Doc enlarges it on the screen and then they STILL run screaming from the room saying, âI couldnât buy a horse with a chip the size of a dinner plateâ. :lol::no:
;):winkgrin::mad:
D:eek:
This is just so scary. And WHY are we still breeding? 
Personally, I do screening xrays on all of my youngsters in the fall of their yearling year. If a chip or something shows up, I have it removed and take a follow up set of x-rays later. I am aware that some of these surgeries may be essentially cosmetic. I am very lucky to have access to two world class equine hospitals right nearby that do hundreds of these surgeries each year, so I feel that the risk is acceptably low. If I did not have access to these vets and facilities, Iâm not sure I would go this route. Really, it boils down to the fact that the climate here is that people want perfect x-raysâthey feel like it is some kind of guarantee that they are getting a âperfectâ horse. Even buyers who donât feel that way have to consider that they may someday want to re-sell the horse and worry that they would have trouble doing so.
Anyway, I donât have a huge sale barn, so I feel like it helps to encourage buyers to have confidence to look at my horses if I have a set of clean x-rays for the horse. Obviously prospective buyers are willing to do whatever they want in terms of additional x-rays.
Actually, thatâs the first question a buyer asks me ⊠âdoes the horse have current x-rays.â I think it would definitely be a plus.
Personally, I do screening xrays on all of my youngsters in the fall of their yearling year. If a chip or something shows up, I have it removed and take a follow up set of x-rays later.
Thereâs a lot of evidence that âchipsâ in horses this young disappear on their own anyway, at least in WBâs. Surgery in a yearling that is not lame is in my mind unnecessary surgery. I wouldnât even bother looking until 2 1/2 - 3. If you have seen a âchipâ in a non-lame horse at 1 year of age, it is probably gone by then.
I have actually never been asked if a sale horse has been x-rayed. I have been asked if a horse has ever failed a vetting.
At the prepurchase, each buyer chooses different parts to xray, and the most common part x-rayed (feet), and more angles than the other areas, no one here has said they usually do. That surprises me.
Darlyn - my mistake⊠I actually do have images of the front feet taken. Gotta have those ânavicularsâ⊠
Feet can also have small coffin bone fractures. In fact, I was told they are quite common, although almost never a problem. When feet x-rays were done on my youngsters, they also measured sole depth.
Tiki, I do my screening xrays at this time based on advice from vets at both Rood and Riddle and Hagyard Davidson McGee. Their opinion is that if you do have to have an OCD removed, healing is quicker and better at this time.
But, you are absolutely right that some lesions will disappear on their own. Fortunately, the vets around here look at so many yearling xrays and have so much experience with this stuff (every yearling going through the TB sales here gets a full set of xrays) they also have the experience to say when a lesion will most likely disappear on its own. I had a horse with a small stifle OCD at 18 mos, vet said to leave it, that it would go away and six months later that stifle is pristine on xrays (horse never had any symptoms). As I understand it, chips and larger OCDs are unlikely to go away with time.
With experienced vets, that plan probably works very well for you. I do absolutely cringe, however, when I hear about people having surgery done on weanlings or yearlings that have never shown any evidence of lameness. Many times that is absolutely unnecessary.
I totally agree.
I heard a vet talking about a horse that she vetted that she found out later had a chip removed as a youngster from his hock. She was very upset that it was not disclosed prior to purchase. The horse was purchased from a very reputable breeder. That horse has since trained in Europe, and passed thru several owners and trainers. I believe he is doing 4th + with no sign of lameness, but that vet would have not recommended the purchase if she had known.
The only other horse I knew that had chips removed was from his fetlock and later his stifle. He went on to have a nice career in Intermediate eventing before being sold with a MAJOR pre-purchase that he passed. He is still 100% sound, and competing.
The youngster I had with a fracture from a pasture injury as a weanling healed fine with stall rest, but I cut his price in half. On his vetting, the x-rays were so clean that the vet requested to see the original rads to make sure he had taken his in the right place.
Those of you that have removed chips, are they disclosed, and if so, do you think that stops sales, or lowers the price?
Well, my now 7yo, who made Premium Mare last year and will doing her MPT this year, had a fractured elbow as a 10 month old. She is not for sale, so I donât have to disclose it to anyone anyway, but I dare anyone to tell me which mare it is if you come out and look at them all!!! Even the one that broke her leg is hard to pick out nowadays, but Iâm sure many of the good breeders could. But youâd have to look real hard.
I know someone who had chips removed from a few horses. You could never tell theyâd had a problem - except for the one that developed a serous leakage on healing and his hock filled. He had chips sooooooooooo deeply embedded it was hard to find on surgery. Several vets said theyâd never move, never cause a problem, would absolutely NOT recommend surgery. No one would buy him. Oy vey, the complications from the surgery for a sound horse!!! The hock is slowly coming down now that heâs back in training. He was a little stiff for a while when he restarted. And this for a horse that was never lame, had the chips so tight in tissue, not near a joint. Too many people donât know what theyâre looking at. A European would have bought him in a heartbeat and who knows how far he could have gone without the damaging surgery?
In this country the easiest way to get out of a sale is to say, âI thought I saw a shadow on his x-ray. I know the vet said it is probably not going to be a problem, buuuuuuttttttttttâŠâ The only thing wrong with the horse many times is in the buyerâs mind. If they donât want it, I wish theyâd just say so.
Lost my last post so lets try this again.
I am wondering the same thing as Darlyn. If you have had a chip removed and the horse now x-rays âcleanâ are you disclosing you had the chip removed? Or just selling on the fact the horse now has clean x-rays? If you are disclosing it how much is it (if any) affecting value? Do people care if it had a chip removed if x-rays are now clean and the horse is going sound. Would like to hear more on this. Also what would a surgery cost? I have never had a horse with OCD so donât know a lot about chip removal and such. Is it a fairly simple procedure or quite invasive or does that depend on where it is?
Itâs generally arthroscopic surgery. I havenât had it done, but I know people who have. Itâs usually around $1100 - $1500. Requires about 6 weeks down time. Virtually impossible to find a scar - unless there were problems with the surgery or recovery (like infection). Itâs a teeny incision, but itâs usually in the leg somewhere and horses lie in sh!t.
So does the fact that a youngster had a chip removed show up on any future x-ray? Or does that depend? If it does not show up, is the joint pristine, and ethical to not disclose? (Will this answer be different depending on buyer or seller?) 
This may be a good poll to put in a riding forum, or Off Course.
