Sale horses and x-rays

[Hillside_H_Ranch]

[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;2963143]
So does the fact that a youngster had a chip removed show up on any future x-ray? Or does that depend? If it does not show up, is the joint pristine, and ethical to not disclose? (Will this answer be different depending on buyer or seller?)

This may be a good poll to put in a riding forum, or Off Course.[/QUOTE]

Depends upon where the chip is, how large, etc. But you can’t always tell that a chip was removed. I can’t give you statistic, I’m not sure they are even out there, but I have seen client x-rays of before and after and you would never know there had been anything removed. I can also think of one case where I know that a horse had a chip removed (in this case, from a fetlock) and had a PPE done at a later date. Those rads were sent to a radiologist at a BIG name clinic and declared clean. I think if you can’t see it on x-ray, and there isn’t anything there to cause a problem and the horse is clinically sound then most sellers aren’t going to say anything to you. I mean, technically, there is no problem to disclose!
If you were a breeder looking at breeding stock you would probably want to know, although with all the possible causes of OCD maybe it wouldn’t even matter then? I guess if you are concerned you have to specifically ask,“has this horse ever had surgery to remove a chip or cyst”? Just like you ask other pre-sale, specific questions (vices, etc).

[Clear_Blue]

[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;2962751]
I totally agree.

Those of you that have removed chips, are they disclosed, and if so, do you think that stops sales, or lowers the price?[/QUOTE]

I always disclose if a young horse had surgery. I will also disclose if a horse has been declined on a PPE before - and why. If I think it will limit the horse’s ability, I put a less expensive price tag on it. If I don’t think it will limit the horse’s ability, I stand firm on my price. Yes I may hold onto the horse a little longer - but that is my choice.

If everyone disclosed all the things that happened to their horses - the buyers would become more accustomed to the fact that horses are living creatures that periodically experience little road bumps along the way. If I remember correctly, even the great Rox Dene had some minor issues with OCD as a youngster.

[camohn]

I have been in the midst of an xray adventure this last year. I have a very fun 4 yo gelding who was ready to show. He had a number of potential buyers and when he got to the vetting they were not even going to xray him as they knew the history of the colt, knew the trainer, trusted we were honest with the history and he was a great fit for a competitive teenager. On the day of the vetting he didn’t pass a flexion in spite of being working sound. We were all surprised. He was reghularly out in a pasture of young geldings who played all the time, he was not wrapped in cotton. Since then he has passed flexions with no trouble but on that day he was off.
I xrayed and he was positive…an inconsequential lesion on the hock in question but a flap on the other hock that may someday cause a problem…then again it may not.

This sounds like a carbon copy of my recent experience! Young horse was never injured, is moving sound in light work here, trotted sound for the vet pre flexion at the PPE and only tested a slight positive on the hock flexion. On xray we were surprised when up shows a hock flap lesion. That buyer did run for the hills. I had several other folks that were interested in the horse prior to this sale-pending-the-vetting. I emailed them that the horse was still available and why if they were still interested. 2 called back that yup…if he is moving sound they are still interested. They are amazed I volunteered that information. I told them it saves all of us a lot of hassle if it is not something they are willing to consider and the horse un necessary vetting. Since most of our foals sell as babies I don’t really have xrays done very often.

[DressageOPhobia]

Sale

2Foals you are right on in your process. I do as well xray in the yearling year. I learned the hard way (attention all you who mock xraying youngsters.)

I raised a gelding from a weanling and at three years old he failed a prepurchase exam and I was shocked when they found a large OCD lesion on the stifle. A career ender, and I had already put large amounts out for training, boarding and raising the youngster. I had never xrayed him. Bad decision.

Bottom line is this, most buyers when purchasing a horse over ___ thousand dollars want xrays. After the xray they ask for the vets opinion. The vet will say NEIGH on the horse if there is any sign of anything. The buyer relys on what the vet says and the vet is regulated by mal practice. They will always err on the side of being conservative,in other words if there is anything there the vet will say NEIGH to the horse for the prospective buyer.

If you are running your horse business like a business,you will xray before you invest $$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Tiki]

Why on earth was that a career ender? If he was in training for how long? and he was sound and going well - just have the chip removed. If he’s sound in work, why on earth would that be a career ender???

[siegi_b]

I’ve had one chip removed in a fetlock that wouldn’t have bothered the horse ever according to the head surgeon at my equine teaching hospital. The chip was discovered when I had radiographs taken for my own benefit.

When I sold the horse I was very upfront with this and even gave the client a DVD with the images. When she had the horse vetted out everybody was very happy because there was no sign of anything and the horse was perfectly ok.

If you want to stay in this business you have to disclose surgeries that were done to a horse you have for sale.

[Peg]

A very seasoned vet told me recently that any horse can be MADE to fail flextion tests. This was after a horse that had bought from her failed the hoof flexion portion. Others vets questioned after that stated that it was true. How can one base a vetting upon one vet’s call? It gets expensive to have 2 exams and films done for a lower level horse. IPeg

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

Flexions are very vet dependent, and can easily be over done. We have seen the AAEP discussing the lack of reliability of both flexions, and x-rays in predicting future soundness, but buyers spending a lot of money want some type of “guarantee”. Vets are protecting themselves in this world where no one wants to accept any risk.

Regular practice vets are usually dealing with issues of “positive” lameness from an issue, so they see thru those tinted glasses. In my experience, it is MUCH better to deal with a vet/university that does a LOT of pre-purchase exams. They are much more likely to see that no horse is perfect, and are more comfortable with their own experience of what is not likely to cause a problem.

One interesting exam the vet did not do any flexions, but worked on checking acupuncture points, to evaluate body pain. Interesting.

[gortmore]

I don’t x-ray my young horses. My vet actually told me that I could probably tell as well as he can whether a horse is sound or not. Now if I was going out today to buy a horse that was going undersaddle I would ultrasound tendons and ligaments as that is the area that I have heard of more problems with. I know horses that have had multiple small tears that had healed, the horse had never been unsound until the final tear that was a big one. I don’t buy into flexions either. We had a horse here in training who had terrible x-rays on his knees and vetted 100% and had been in hard work. I know another horse who had ‘perfect’ x-rays and would not flex. If the horse has been in work and is sound I put more weight on that then anything else. The other thing I have found is that the people buying the more expensive horses don’t expect the perfect vetting but those buying horses that are less expensive do want perfect vettings. By expensive I mean $ 50 K and up. Less expensive being $ 30 K and under. This makes it hard for breeders as most young horses are in the under $ 30 K range and have not been in work long enough to be considered sound.

[camohn]

[QUOTE=gortmore;2966538]
I don’t x-ray my young horses. My vet actually told me that I could probably tell as well as he can whether a horse is sound or not. Now if I was going out today to buy a horse that was going undersaddle I would ultrasound tendons and ligaments as that is the area that I have heard of more problems with. I know horses that have had multiple small tears that had healed, the horse had never been unsound until the final tear that was a big one. I don’t buy into flexions either. We had a horse here in training who had terrible x-rays on his knees and vetted 100% and had been in hard work. I know another horse who had ‘perfect’ x-rays and would not flex. If the horse has been in work and is sound I put more weight on that then anything else. The other thing I have found is that the people buying the more expensive horses don’t expect the perfect vetting but those buying horses that are less expensive do want perfect vettings. By expensive I mean $ 50 K and up. Less expensive being $ 30 K and under. This makes it hard for breeders as most young horses are in the under $ 30 K range and have not been in work long enough to be considered sound.[/QUOTE]

Certainly none of my horse have sold for over 30K, but it is still true. Folks buying the more expensive horses have been more fogiving of “small stuff” than folks buying the less expensive horses. I never did figure it out! I guess folks buying pricey horses are just more experienced/comfortable with what little flaws they are willing to take than the generally less experienced owner shopping in a lower price range.

[Clear_Blue]

Typically a horse that sells for over 50K has already started some kind of performance career (at least in the US). Once the horse has shown the talent and ability to stay sound in competition - the findings on an intial (young) horse PPE become less concerning.

This is the tough part for breeders. The PPE carries more weight on most of the horses we want to sell (young and uproven). Unfortunately it can depend on the care and training a horse receives whether a radiographic question turns into a lameness problem or not.

[not_again]

Family history plays a big part too. If parents and grandparents worked hard and stayed sound for a long time, then buyers are more will to take a risk on not quite perfect x-rays. As an aside, those looking for many perfect x-rays on a less expensive horse are often looking for a quick resale.

[ljshorses]

This is a very interesting and timely thread. I had a very, very strange thing happen and would love others opinions here please. First, I must say that I have had my feed program seriously analyzed by two equine nutritionists and a lameness vet that does many pre-purchase exams on warmblood youngsters. We carefuly balance vit, minerals, fat, protein etc… etc… Next, not one of my mares has had ocd. thirdly, I have never had a horse sold here that was x-rayed (until now) show any ocd issues. Also, we believe in 24/7 turnout and they are only brought in to feed and/or work etc… So here goes my weird scenario, sorry it is so long.

I had a very, very fast growing colt this year. He never showed lameness or swelling anywhere. The purchaser had a pre-purchase exam done and she wasn’t present (she lived very far away). I was not told what exactly she ordered but did what the vet said which was walk and trot on two different surfaces, towards and away from vet. Have him at liberty in our large ring. And all joints were palped. Heart, lungs and eyes were also checked. No x-rays and I was surprised and even asked if the vet was sure. She said the purchaser made it clear it would be left to the vet’s discretion and she the vet, felt there was absolutely no need. This vet has done many, pre-purchase exams for many big name breeders…so I said okay. I spoke to the purchaser following the exam. She also said she was surprised that x-rays weren’t taken, but said to go ahead and deposit the check. She also said she wanted to keep him here for 60 days before she could bring him home. Well, I agreed to keep him here free the 60 days and heard nothing from her until about day 65. I had emailed her to see if she had scheduled the shipping. She said it was scheduled and he would be leaving in just a couple weeks but she didn’t have the exact day yet?? Then, I get a call from my vet who said that the buyer had called their office (I had given the buyer the number so she could get his vaccination records) and scheduled with them to come out and do digitals of the colt’s hocks! I was surprised but figured, hey he’s her horse and maybe she just wants a baseline before shipping him or maybe her insurance company required it. Okay, now here comes the bad part, he’s got ocd of the hocks. The vet wasn’t at all concerned and said it would be easy surgery and in fact, he wouldn’t even recommend doing it and just wait and re-x-ray when he was old enough to go under saddle.

Okay, you probably guessed the result…the buyer now wants her money back. I said that the contract had been completed 2 months ago and he passed his pre-purchase exam. She went batty on me and I felt bad so I offered to pay for the surgery. I told her she could keep the money in a savings count and if it isn’t present in a couple years then she gets the money and the interest for 2+ years! If it is still there then she has the money for the surgery. She says NO and that she was going to black ball me as a breeder and I would be ruined! I really wanted to just give her the money back just so she’d be happy, keep the colt until he was old enough to start under saddle and the x-ray before beginning his training. Since my husband is an attorney, he says no, a deal is a deal. We did nothing wrong. She chose the vet for the pre-purchase and she was okay with the exam or she wouldn’t of told us to deposit the check, Also, he says…she had 60 days to communicate that she was unhappy and she never said a word to lead us to believe she was. She also had said that he was scheduled to be hauled to her so why would she say that if she wasn’t happy with everything to that point.

I am sorry for such a book, but I am distraught over this and really just want to give her her money back but hubby won’t let me. I am so worried about her saying nasty things about me even though hubby says that that would be slander. Slander or not, it could still hurt my business which I have worked so hard to have. I honestly think she got cold feet about buying him (maybe buyer’s remorse) and was looking for a way out…Finally, the really weird thing is this last conversation with her was more than a month ago and I haven’t heard a ting from her. We sent her a registered letter giving her 60 days to pick him up or at least contact us to make some arrangement. We told her we will consider him abandoned if she fails to get back to us and the 60 days are past. My husband says we would have to auction him after that and from the money we get we would take any expenses we have had while waiting this out. My question to other breeders is…what would you do in this situation? I swear I am getting an ulcer over it. Another problem is that he is not gelded and I can’t geld him without her written permission since she technically owns him. So come spring I will have to deal with his hormones, ughhh.

[DressageOPhobia]

Sale

Ljshorses I think your story says it all.
To run a horse selling business you have to know your inventory before you try to sell it. You have your reputation as a business to uphold. I want to sell a quality good minded animal. Nothing else. That is what I want to put my money, time, attention and love into, nothing else.

I like you did not xray when I got the gelding as a yearling and before I put the horse on the market. It was pretty embarassing for me to find that my $20k 3 year old Hanoverian failed the prepurchase because they found a large OCD lesion in the stifle.

And yes this is a career ender in the opinion of several vets (I had to face reality.) And yes I did the surgery. And yes the training university vet recommended and did the surgery (the best in the area.) And NO the horse was never lame before the surgery. And Yes the horse was lame after the surgery each time we tried to put him back into work. This was a long process but in the end…I had to face reality with this horse. I do not believe in selling a horse cheaply that has issues to be rehomed as a project horse again and again. Cruel to a horse with pain issues.

All I am saying about xrays is they are one way to face reality sooner (maybe when they are yearling and 2,when maybe you can do more about OCD) than later when they are a started dressage prospect and you have invested lots of $$, time and love in them.

[siegi_b]

ljshorses - I would reimburse the woman and keep the colt. Then I would get the hock surgery done and probably geld at the same time. Without having seen the x-rays it’s hard for me to make a prediction on the surgery outcome but chances are that the colt will be fine after he recovers.

I have a problem with husbands getting involved when they usually aren’t. So he’s a lawyer and knows something about suing - that doesn’t do much for your business. As you’ve said, you’ve built your business over time and can’t really afford getting black-balled by an unhappy client (whether she’s right or wrong). And I don’t think that she got cold feet and then decided to have the horse x-rayed… I think she talked with some folks that know a little about PPEs and told her to at least get the hocks and whatever else done. Her take probably is that since she hasn’t taken possession of the horse yet she can still get out of the situation.

Sending the colt to an auction makes no sense to me - financially or otherwise. As I mentioned before, my recommendation is to get the surgery done and also geld the horse, rehab him, and then sell him as a sound prospect.

Good luck!

[ltw]

I agree with Siegi’s advice.

I also strongly believe that most of us Horsewomen should keep our Non-horsehusbands out of our Horse Business.

What your husband is advising is not in the best interest of you, the horse, or the buyer.

Doing what Siegi advised will be the best thing for your health and peace of mind, the best thing for your reputation as a breeder, will help you get rid of your ulcer, and will be the best thing for the health of your horse. It will also help you sleep better at night knowing that you did “the right thing”.

I think it is important to always put the horse’s health and well being first.

[little_miss]

Ijshorses, How old is your ‘colt’ was it a '07 foal? (I couldn’t figure it out exactly from your post). Because generally speaking, you can’t get accurate x-rays of horses under 18 months. That would be the earliest time to take them. Often youngsters will have “ocd” or fragments during growth periods and then grow out of them, so taking photos of anything under 18 months is generally wasting money, which could be why the vet chose not to do them during the first ppe. Just an idea to think about, I can imagine that it is causing you a lot of problems, usually we say no sale is complete until the money is in the bank, but this is not your case…!

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

If the colt in question is a 2007 model, I wouldn’t be so fast to jump on the surgery wagon. Research has shown that many OCDs present as youngsters, are gone at 2-3. I think as long as he is sound, I would just wait to re-xray at that point.

You may want to send your buyer copies of all the research you can find.

[daisyduke]

LJSHORSES I side with hubby and I certainly do not agree with hubby being kept out of the decision making. Perhaps hubby is not horse-orientated but better yet, he may be business orientated. I am not a horse breeder nor do I sell horses (mine are all lifers), however, when considering your business deal regarding the colt, in my eyes, the buyer is responsible for all pre-purchase exams and if the purchaser agreed to all conditions and prices, they are 100% the new owner . I too have purchased horses with little or no pre-purchase examinations and if complications arise, I accept total responsibility for my decision to go ahead and purchase. In my opinion, your contract was complete 65 days ago. You did not intentionally hide or misrepresent your colt. You are a responsible breeder. You were not unethical in your representation. Buyer Beware!

[siegi_b]

In re-reading ljshorses’ post it’s possible that the colt in question is just a yearling… So, I agree with Darlyn and wouldn’t have the surgery done right now. Turn the horse back out and then redo the x-rays when he’s 2 1/2.

I’m still firm on the other recommendation - return the money and be done with that client. Unless it is your husband’s business (in which case he should have handled the whole transaction), it’s you who has to continue trying to keep your reputation as a responsible breeder. I can’t imagine that a busy attorney would have the time to worry about those things… Cow-girl up!