Sale horses and x-rays

[ltw]

“My husband says we would have to auction him after that and from the money we get we would take any expenses we have had while waiting this out. My question to other breeders is…what would you do in this situation?”

This is in nobody’s best interest, particularly not the horse.

I have been breeding for 20 years. I am also a professional business person in my real job, but there is no way I would let my husband (attorney or not) go through with this plan.

This may be legally what is done with a car, or a horse that is abandoned for non-payment of board. But it is not what I would want happening to a young horse that I bred and put my blood, sweat and tears into.

When we breed horses and bring them into this world, we are responsible for them. We are responsible for placing them in appropriate homes when we sell them. If he cannot be sold right now, get him diagnosed and determine with your vet if he should have the surgery. If he needs the surgery, do it, rehabilitate him, and when he is old enough get him started under saddle. Then you are in a position to sell him to the right home if he is sound and able to work.

[ljshorses]

The colt was 7months old. And he has never been lame or had swelling.

I have a double delimma where my husband is concerned, yes it is my business but he is a “silent” partner. It’s just that he doesn’t always remain silent, lol. He put up personal stock (got before our marriage) to help fund the purchasing of top mares. So I do feel a bit obligated to at least listen to his pont of view. I am truly certain that I didn’t misrepresent the colt in any way whatsoever and even questioned the pre-purchase vet about her not doing x-rays. But and to me this is a big but…I want happy clients and have had so up to this point. Plus I LOVE this colt and am not sure I’d want her to have him especially in a forceful manner. So that is why I am so torn. Personally I would feel better handing her back her money, but I certainly also agree with my hubby and where he comes from, damn…biggest problem with the horse business is you are so emotionally involved no matter what.

[Clear_Blue]

I agree with Siegi and ltw. At the end of the day - what is best for the horse that we (as breeders) put on the ground is the most important consideration. It is disheartening to hear that a breeder would consider auctioning off a youngster just to pursue a contract to the nth degree.

Ask hubby how he would deal with the horse if he had been radiographed and failed the PPE? At the end of the day, how much $$ is it really? By doing the right thing (giving money back) and taking care of your youngster - you give him the best chance of a better opportunity coming down the pike.

This can be one of those character building moments - and maybe just a small test of whether you/your hubby have the fortitude to last in this (crazy) business.

Best of luck getting it resolved.

[ltw]

LJS:

One more interesting point:

if this horse was purchased in Germany, he would come with a one year warrantee by German law. You would be required by law to take the horse back and refund all of the buyer’s money if something showed up in his health within the year of purchase. That law was passed in Germany about 4-5 years ago.

[ljshorses]

Well, it wouldn’t be an auction in a bad way if it goes that way. From what I understand, you need to advertise the auction in at least one publication, any publication. The auction can take place at our farm and as long as one person bids on him (and that could even be me) it is legal.The funny thing is, my vet and 2 others have expressed interest in buying the colt as is. If the buyer would get in touch with me maybe it could easily be resolved and she could just pass the ownership over to one of the others who want him. I am still willing to pay for the surgery no matter who he ultimately goes to because I want the best for him regardless. I think it would be best to wait to actually do the surgery though in case it would to resolve on it’s own. I too am very willing to keep him until he’s under saddle because he is spectacular. At the end of the day I have to live with my husband so I do need him to be happy as well. Sometimes things aren’t just black and white. Regardless of how this ends up, I as a responsible breeder, will do everything possible to not let anything bad happen to this colt.

[ljshorses]

[QUOTE=ltw;2967874]
LJS:

One more interesting point:

if this horse was purchased in Germany, he would come with a one year warrantee by German law. You would be required by law to take the horse back and refund all of the buyer’s money if something showed up in his health within the year of purchase. That law was passed in Germany about 4-5 years ago.[/QUOTE]

wow, kind of wish we had that law here, then there would be no issue with my husband

[2foals]

ljshorses, I don’t think you did anything wrong, and I think that the buyer has clearly stepped out of bounds to expect you to take the horse back when she had every opportunity to examine the horse to her satisfaction BEFORE she purchased it…nonetheless I agree with the other posters who agree with your feeling that you should take the horse back.

To help you convince your husband… Strictly from a business perspective, the time and energy and stress and possible legal wrangling you will waste trying to track down and “settle” things with this owner while you take care of a horse that doesn’t belong to you will be more of a loss than simply returning the money and taking the horse back. There could also be a cost to your reputation from people knowing that you shuffled an “undesirable” youngster off to auction.

Anyway, taking the horse back might not be a loss at all. If the little guy is just a yearling now, you should have plenty of time to re-xray and possibly operate. You’ll have to ask your vet, but I would think you have a very decent chance of ending up with a perfectly fine three year old in a couple of years, probably/possibly with clean films.

[Tiki]

Did I miss something here? How the heck can she own the horse when she has only given you a deposit. Did she actually pay in full? I thought she wasn’t going to pay until he was shipped. If all you have is a deposit, return it and turn him back out or sell him to the vet who is interested. S/he certainly knows what they letting themselves in for. I would NEVER operate on a sound foal at 7 months of age.

[little_miss]

@ljshorses;2967219

The colt was 7months old. And he has never been lame or had swelling.

Then he is too young to have accurate x-rays taken and the first vet doing the ppe exam was correct. It’s unfortunate to think that a horse would have an un-neccessary surgery. This seems more like a “fad” surgery where the vets can get quick money and do something interesting (as apposed to drawing blood for coggins). There are SO many horses with chips and/or ocd fragments at the top level of the sport, I can guarentee it (and know it first hand ;-)). Unless it is causing a problem leave the jewelry in.

And I love the comment about the buyer not being able to see it until they blow up the image on the screen and then it’s the size of a dinner plate and the people go running – classic example!!!

[Cartier]

[QUOTE=ljshorses;2967219]
The colt was 7months old. And he has never been lame or had swelling.

I have a double delimma where my husband is concerned, yes it is my business but he is a “silent” partner. It’s just that he doesn’t always remain silent, lol. He put up personal stock (got before our marriage) to help fund the purchasing of top mares. So I do feel a bit obligated to at least listen to his pont of view. I am truly certain that I didn’t misrepresent the colt in any way whatsoever and even questioned the pre-purchase vet about her not doing x-rays. But and to me this is a big but…I want happy clients and have had so up to this point. Plus I LOVE this colt and am not sure I’d want her to have him especially in a forceful manner. So that is why I am so torn. Personally I would feel better handing her back her money, but I certainly also agree with my hubby and where he comes from, damn…biggest problem with the horse business is you are so emotionally involved no matter what.[/QUOTE]
Geez what a mess… especially when it concerns a foal you’ve raised and cared for. Sounds like you’ve tried to do everything right… lots of lessons here for everyone. I agree with Darlyn’s comment, “tell me again, why the heck do we do this?”

If it were me, I’d settle this now out of court. I’m not an attorney, but I’m suspect your husband will tell you that before you could re-sell this little guy you’d have to get a court to enter a judgment in your favor (under some theory of abandonment I suspect) and then you’d have to foreclose on that judgment and re-sell the little guy. If the purchaser defends against the action, you could easily spend more fighting this in court than the baby is worth. For example, the purchaser may concede that the purchase transaction is complete, but she may ground her response/defense in some version of the Uniform Commercial Code or Lemon Law (alleging that, because of the OCD, your “product” was not fit for the intended purpose… and that you knew or should have known about the OCD). That would call into question whether either parent had previously transmitted OCD… and whether you (as a responsible breeder) had properly inquired about OCD prior to breeding, and whether the stallion owner misrepresented the OCD status of the stallion and what he has transmitted… did he have a history of transmitting OCD… and should you have known of this history. The claims you make in your advertising (e.g on your website) and claims made about the stallions you use in your breeding program (which are also on your website via links)could all be called into question as being misleading… it could go on forever.

Who knows, the purchaser may prevail and may even get damages… there was a case out in Washington State recently where a judge awarded treble damages because the seller of “a product” (in this instance a puppy) did not disclose that one of the grandfathers of the puppy had a congenital heart condition. (At the time the seller sold the puppy, the heart defect of the grandfather was not known, the judge didn’t seem to care). The court looked at the claims made on the seller’s website (about quality and heath testing) and found for the plaintiff. I am sure your husband will tell you that courts do all sorts of odd things…there is always risk in any litigation. Even with family member who is an attorney, the litigation itself will be taking his time and energy away from dealing with his paying clients. It is easier to settle this and move on… for your peace of mind and for this baby’s quality of life. Who knows, the owner of this foal’s sire may want you to move on, rather than have a public record of this sire producing OCD… the stallion owner may help out here.

[ljshorses]

[QUOTE=Tiki;2967984]
Did I miss something here? How the heck can she own the horse when she has only given you a deposit. Did she actually pay in full? I thought she wasn’t going to pay until he was shipped. If all you have is a deposit, return it and turn him back out or sell him to the vet who is interested. S/he certainly knows what they letting themselves in for. I would NEVER operate on a sound foal at 7 months of age.[/QUOTE]

Hi Tiki,

No she paid in full with a signed contract after the pre-purchase exam. I also, in the contract, agreed to board for 60 days free of charge to give her time to hook up shipping (very far away). One little bit I failed to disclose because I felt it was not important to this discussion but now I am wondering… All of this was on the sly so to speak. She insisted I never contact her and that she would only contact me if there was a reason to because she was not wanting her husband to find out. I all along told her I was very uncomfortable with the deception and asked her to be up front but she refused and said it was her money etc… I was always uncomfortable with this sale from the beginning…it just didn’t smell right. When I tried to contact her after the 60 days were up to find out about shipping (that’s past 60 days with his full sale price in the bank) she blasted me and said her husband was now suspicious since I left a phone message!!!

I value honesty over everything and have always felt being dishonest can only cause problems and well here you go. Me going along with her scheme sucked me and my business into her crap. That is why I also want her to be gone and give her back her money, not because she is right but because I don’t want someone like her having him. What else might she do? Anyway, the theory of the 2nd vet and x-rays being performed is I feel due to her being “caught” by her husband and her looking for a way out. Honestly, I was more than willing to let her out but yes hubby said no. I am truly stuck between a rock and a hard place because initially I did agree with my husband when he explained his “case” but agreeing and feeling comfortable with the actions it has now caused are not the same thing. I am very, very uncomfortable and want it to be over.

My husband says that if I give her back the money now that she will still bad mouth me anyway??? Talk about ulcers…I have lost so much weight over this (not the best way to diet, that’s for sure) and have literally been “sick”. I can’t even sleep without tylenol pm. I truly want to do the “right” thing and make everyone happy, but geez how can I now do that?

[Cartier]

You might have an impartial mediator contact the buyer… and dispassionately lay out all the options (her’s and your’s)… and the costs involved with pursuing different options (including litigation) … possibly she will see that the best solution here is to work together to re-sell this baby…

[not_again]

It sounds like an unpleasant home for your nice young horse anyway. Adoption agencies have to step in and remove children from a home–it is harder to do for a foal that can’t speak for itself.

[Tiki]

Aw geez, ljs. Hugs to you and Jingles for you and your little baby for a good resolution of this horrible dilemma.

[camohn]

That last tidbit DOES sound like the real issue is a domestic one with the hubby and she was looking for an out. Legality aside I would be concerned about him going to a home he may be unwanted for multiple reasons.
How about this as a mediation attempt: you fulfilled the contract so you do not owe her the money back BUT wanting him to go to a better (aka more wanted) place you are willing to re-sell the horse. If and when he is resold you will then reimburse her for whatever you can resell him for up to the purchase price.

[okggo]

I’m sorry you are going through this. It’s the sad reality of dealing with the public, you will get nutters now and then despite your best vetting procedures. I had a friend sell a cribber, it was disclosed verbally, in writing AND on the vet check. The woman didn’t care, bought the horse, took him to their new boarding barn and guess what, the barn didn’t allow cribbers. She called my friend (an attorney, btw) screaming fraud and that she would ruin her, blah blah. My friend could have EASLY won any case against her, but in the back of her mind is, WHAT is going to happen to this gelding? Anyway, she took him back, kept the deposit, and ended up selling him for quite a bit more a couple months later to a great home.

The thing we face here, is that there is a living breathing animal in the middle of this, and I can tell by your posts you would fret every day if she ended up with him. Void the sale, KEEP the deposit (hopefully stipulations in your contract will allow this) and rest easy when you find him a home with somebody who really wants him.

So sorry you are going through this!

[ljshorses]

This is the very reason why these forums can be so valuable. All that have responded to my posts have helped more than you can ever know. I am now going to reapproach my husband with new self assurance (wish me luck…hmm wish I had feminine charms still, damn hate getting old in more ways than one, lol) tonight. His birthday was yesterday and I threw him a little family party and cooked all his favorites. He also got some nifty gifts sooo he is in a GREAT mood today. When he gets home I will approach him with my plea. I know he thinks he is acting as my protector and probably feels that at last something in my business he can actually help with. But I need him to understand the emotional part here more than a simple who’s right and who’s wrong.

I like the ideas too of keeping the deposit but refunding the rest or/ selling him for her. I will obviously need to discuss this with her and hopefully she too can see past any anger over the situation and will want the best for this beautiful colt who did nothing wrong. Hopefully my nightmare here can help others avoid such a thing in their business transactions.

Well now I am going to get out and ride, something that always helps the soul and since I got greenies under saddle to work, they definitely keep me focused! Thank you all, I knew there would be others out there that would understand why I was so worried about this baby. No baby human or otherwise (as not again implied) needs to be drug into a fight they have no control over.

[ljshorses]

Just an update and more thanks to everyone. The buyer’s “in the dark” husband called my husband and he seems like he is a very nice person. He wants to do what is best for the colt too and will act as the mediator to try and reason with his wife. We will be looking into many options, one is to continue to board and repeat x-rays at a later date to see if there is any change. (any suggestions on best age to do this?)

Another option is that we act as an agent for her and sell the colt. However, I would of course disclose the ocd so I am not sure he would sell well without clean x-rays.

Thirdly, refund all but the deposit…this is a little screwey too because I will have to go to the bank (which has since been bought by PNC) and get the deposit slips because… she lied to her husband about that too. She said her deposit was $500 but it was $1500. The check’s memo was clearly labeled deposit check. The balance check was also clearly labeled as the balance paid in full. I think I should be able to retrieve this info and will start looking into that right away.

Again, thanks to all that responded to my posts, I actually slept great last night for the first time in quite awhile…no tylenol pm needed, yeah.

[okggo]

ljs, glad things are working out fingers crossed it will continue to do so!

[Horse2019]

I’m trying to sell a sound horse doing his job but doesn’t have great x rays on a couple joints and does great on maintenance. Lovely horse. Looks like he will be a Charity donation soon simply due to everyone passes due to x rays and he never gets a chance to be tried. It’s sad. Please don’t judge a horse just on x rays especially if it’s priced accordingly!