Santa Anita- do you think somethings up?

[Texarkana]

@TCA Arabians

What I just learned in this thread was taxpayer involved funds in racing. Would someone expand on that? How so?

Pari-mutuel betting is a state-regulated industry, unlike other professional sports which are ultimately private. The state approves its existence and controls its implementation. At the top, you have state sponsored gaming boards enforcing overarching rules and legislation for gaming. Then you have state racing boards dealing with horse racing-specific regulations. You need state-employed officials to enforce said regulations on site at the racetracks.

While the racetracks themselves are privately owned and usually fully fund their day-to-day operating expenses, state money can be involved as needed. State funds may be needed to subsidize purse structure or incentives. Some states have used tax money to bail out racetracks when their budgets ran into the red.

The gaming industry brings in a lot of money for the state. Sometimes this money stays within state gaming funds, other times gets used for different sectors that don’t generate income. It’s part of the assets a state holds.

[TCA_Arabians]

Thanks Texarkana - I’m guessing that means that the state employees that enforce the various regulations are paid from the tax/fees paid to the state via racing. In CA, it isn’t tax dollars coming out of my pocket and, in some cases, it contributes to other funds that otherwise would come out of my pocket.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@Pronzini

Color me skeptical.

Pronzini, I was skeptical before I even read the article. :rolleyes: When it comes to something that should require some knowledgable research, I don’t count on mainstream media to do that. They don’t know what they don’t know.

For my information on this I’m usually looking at either Bloodhorse or Paulick Report. I figure that BH or PR make a decent attempt to research what they write about and by people knowledgable in the first place.

Less charmed by Stronach’s press release

[Palm_Beach]

Natalie Voss is one of the few reporters who meticulously researches topics and presents them with little bias. I’m waiting on her next piece on this subject.

[TCA_Arabians]

Here is a piece on the vets from the track criticizing the Lasix ban/reduction:

https://www.latimes.com/sports/more/la-sp-santa-anita-veterinarians-20190319-story.html

[Big_Tag]

@Laurierace

It is not wrong to say that every horse bleeds because they do. Maybe not every race, maybe not very badly and certainly not visibly without a scope, but they do. They weren’t designed to go this fast for this far, they were designed to outrun a predator flat out for a couple hundred yards or so. Lasix is a PR issue not a horse issue in my opinion and I just don’t think PR has a place in horsemanship. Right now with the testing we have we are closer to the hay, oats and water everyone pines about than ever before although most people would never feed actual oats. The countries that do not allow lasix get by without it via means that are much crueler than a shot of lasix every month or two will ever be.

Can you expound on those cruel methods? Like in TBs, STB racing overseas bans lasix. My contacts over there, when asked about what you do when a horse bleeds? You don’t race them.
I don’t quite understand the correlation here as it pertains to SA breakdowns, and I am not at all inherently anti-lasix. But i strongly believe it is WAY overused stateside, and I do not believe it has no negative impact on a horse (or human, for that matter).

[Jealoushe]

Such a sad state of affairs. I am however jealous how serious they are taking this and doing all the research and re Krishna necessary to find out the WHYs and WHAT to do. I wish the Eventing powers that be would take their issues as seriously!

The track needs to be careful, if a rider dies because of an accident caused by break down, they are going to have a hell of a battle proving they aren’t liable. It’s not just the horses training in danger with this scenario.

[Palm_Beach]

@Jealoushe

The track needs to be careful, if a rider dies because of an accident caused by break down, they are going to have a hell of a battle proving they aren’t liable. It’s not just the horses training in danger with this scenario.

Riders do die when horses break down. Hasn’t happened at Santa Anita this year, but it’s been pretty well publicized the efforts they’ve gone to with examining the track, necroscopies on the horses, steps taken to reduce medications, vets watching the horses train, assessing risk of horses scheduled to work, etc. It would be difficult PROVING that the track was negligent in some manner.

No one knows what is causing the breakdowns.

[Jealoushe]

@Palm Beach

Riders do die when horses break down. Hasn’t happened at Santa Anita this year, but it’s been pretty well publicized the efforts they’ve gone to with examining the track, necroscopies on the horses, steps taken to reduce medications, vets watching the horses train, assessing risk of horses scheduled to work, etc. It would be difficult PROVING that the track was negligent in some manner.

No one knows what is causing the breakdowns.

I have a different opinion, working in risk management. They open the track, another horse dies, they close the track, then reopen without having answers. It would be an easy case to prove the track is liabile imo.

They know there is an issue, but don’t know what it is, but open it anyway. It’s a dangerous game to play.

[Laurierace]

@Big_Tag

Can you expound on those cruel methods? Like in TBs, STB racing overseas bans lasix. My contacts over there, when asked about what you do when a horse bleeds? You don’t race them.
I don’t quite understand the correlation here as it pertains to SA breakdowns, and I am not at all inherently anti-lasix. But i strongly believe it is WAY overused stateside, and I do not believe it has no negative impact on a horse (or human, for that matter).

Your contacts haven’t told you what they have tried before deciding not to race them. No, I will not expound on the heinous things that were tried over the decades before lasix was a thing except to mention the first thing they try which is withholding water for 18 hours or so before a race. Lasix works by reducing their blood pressure by reducing their blood volume via urination. You can sort of so the same thing by not letting them drink for most of a day. Better not give them any hay either since they don’t have any water to digest it with. No worries, gastrogard is legal post race, you can start to heal the ulcers you induced.

[Big_Tag]

@Laurierace

Your contacts haven’t told you what they have tried before deciding not to race them. No, I will not expound on the heinous things that were tried over the decades before lasix was a thing except to mention the first thing they try which is withholding water for 18 hours or so before a race. Lasix works by reducing their blood pressure by reducing their blood volume via urination. You can sort of so the same thing by not letting them drink for most of a day. Better not give them any hay either since they don’t have any water to digest it with. No worries, gastrogard is legal post race, you can start to heal the ulcers you induced.

As I said, I am not anti- lasix. Lots of things were done decades ago that we don’t do now. I have no reason to not believe my contacts, one of which is a vet, and the notion they have more selectively bred to help mitigate the need for lasix is also supported by the fact that overseas horses come over here and do just fine without it (though admittedly at least in the case of European horses, imports tend to already be top-tier types). And I do believe plenty of horses here, that to your point MAY bleed at some point, are put on lasix as basically a preventive measure, and don’t actially need it.
I guess overall though I am failing to see the connection with lasix and SA breakdowns.

[Palm_Beach]

@Jealoushe

I have a different opinion, working in risk management. They open the track, another horse dies, they close the track, then reopen without having answers. It would be an easy case to prove the track is liabile imo.

They know there is an issue, but don’t know what it is, but open it anyway. It’s a dangerous game to play.

I work in risk management and insurance. Assumption of risk is in play on the part of the riders. The tracks attempted to discover the cause, and in the process proved that the track surface is in line with accepted standards, and there is no problem with the track discovered to date. They absolutely did their due diligence in this matter. You have to prove negligence, and it has been disproven.

[Where_sMyWhite]

I am not in risk management nor insurance

Given that it was inevitable that a catastrophic breakdown would happen in either training or a race on the main track, seems like the door would be open for non-negligence as it would be very difficult (it seems to me) to show that the first horse broke down as a result of an issue with the track vs the horse breaking down because, as unpleasant as it is, it does happen even at the best of racetracks.

[INoMrEd]

@Where'sMyWhite

Racing set to resume March 22.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/232572/racing-set-to-resume-march-22-at-santa-anita

What the LA Times article didn’t mention to my satisfaction is why is the DA looking at these equine deaths? What would possible criminal charges be? Against who? (ie, what laws are being broken?)

Or is this just more feel good for the public?

I think it is feel good for the public, however, my take on it is that this investigation by the DA is also a huge waste of taxpayer funds.

[Sparrowette]

@INoMrEd

I think it is feel good for the public, however, my take on it is that this investigation by the DA is also a huge waste of taxpayer funds.

Is the DA elected or appointed?

[TCA_Arabians]

The DA in LA County is an elected position. She is running for her third term.

And, here is a panel Q&A put together by the LATimes:

https://www.latimes.com/sports/more/la-sp-santa-anita-what-happened-20190320-story.html

[Where_sMyWhite]

Normally, District Attorneys are elected positions.

[Jealoushe]

@Where'sMyWhite

I am not in risk management nor insurance

Given that it was inevitable that a catastrophic breakdown would happen in either training or a race on the main track, seems like the door would be open for non-negligence as it would be very difficult (it seems to me) to show that the first horse broke down as a result of an issue with the track vs the horse breaking down because, as unpleasant as it is, it does happen even at the best of racetracks.

Yes, I was more referring to the after fact of all the fatalities. It reminds me a bit of the issues with the commercial planes right now.

@Palm Beach what kind of insurance are you in? (Just being nosey lol)

[endlessclimb]

@Laurierace

Your contacts haven’t told you what they have tried before deciding not to race them. No, I will not expound on the heinous things that were tried over the decades before lasix was a thing except to mention the first thing they try which is withholding water for 18 hours or so before a race. Lasix works by reducing their blood pressure by reducing their blood volume via urination. You can sort of so the same thing by not letting them drink for most of a day. Better not give them any hay either since they don’t have any water to digest it with. No worries, gastrogard is legal post race, you can start to heal the ulcers you induced.

I’ll take a devil’s advocate position here, and ask - can bleeding be bred out? I’d assume the answer is yes, due to the fact that not all horses need it.

Because if yes, then we are doing a tremendous disservice racing horses who bleed on lasix instead of culling the gene pool. We are not progressing the breed forward into something more powerful and resilient if we are propping it up with meds. Do eventers doing long format give lasix - it could certainly be argued that an eventing horse puts forth a similar level of effort over their multiple minute track, long or short format. What about grand prix jumpers right before going in the ring - that’s some hard work, too? If other endeavors can sustain their sport without “therapeutic” use of a drug designed to dehydrate, I’m sure racing can figure it out.

In this article, a horse who was racing successfully overseas was imported, and immediately put on lasix for his first race. why? He was apparently successful without it, why introduce it now? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-s…-idUSKCN1J32VJ

Question I don’t know the answer to: Do greyhounds need lasix? Why/why not?

[Laurierace]

No bleeding can not be bred out. It can possibly be bred to be somewhat reduced but as long as we are asking the horse to go farther than the 1/4 or so they were designed to be able to outrun any predator on the earth then the possibility of bleeding is always going to be there.