Santa Anita- do you think somethings up?

[endlessclimb]

@snaffle1987

You all need to go look up what he did to poor Kochees since the time he claimed that poor horse a few months ago. It’s been documented in this thread in pages prior. Raced on 3/1, 4/19, 5/5 and 5/25. P.sted 4F workouts on 4/28, 5/13 and 5/21. The horse was already on the track vet’s radar and listed by them as being unsound. And yet, here is Hollendorfer pounding away on the poor horse, raced him on 5/5 then worked him on 5/13 and 5/21 before his final start 3 days later on 5/25 where he broke down. inexcusable.

All I know about this is my own experience, but the photo below is my own OTTB’s race record, which is arguably more aggressive towards the end than Kochees, as hers were actual races and not just 4F workouts.

She didn’t break down.
[ATTACH=JSON]{“alt”:“Click image for larger version Name: race record.JPG Views: 1 Size: 11.2 KB ID: 10417901”,“data-align”:“none”,“data-attachmentid”:“10417901”,“data-size”:“full”}[/ATTACH]

Edited in case the screenshot isn’t readable: Raced 2/22, 2/15, 2/8, 2/2, 1/21, 1/12, 1/4, 12/22, 12/14, 12/4 [short break switching tracks], 10/11, 10/2, 9/18, 9/10, 9/3, 8/25, 8/18, 8/7, 7/31, 7/24, 7/16, 7/8, 6/17, 6/11, 6/5… etc etc.

47 races under her belt. Most of those were a mile, give or take a bit.

[Palm_Beach]

@endlessclimb - Thank you for taking a good, hard knocking horse and giving it a second chance. We need many many more people like you. Race training is not a recipe (which I’m sure you are perfectly well aware of) and what works for one horse does not work for another. Over the past couple decades, race training has progressed to a much lighter training schedule for horses that are racing fit and know what they are doing. For many horses, once the body is racing fit, you don’t need to keep pounding on them, and a lighter training schedule actually lets them recuperate and any mild damage heal. There is logic to that, and of course there are horses that defy logic and do just fine on a tougher regime, or even need a tougher regime to remain fit. That is where horsemanship comes in.

[endlessclimb]

@Palm Beach

@endlessclimb - Thank you for taking a good, hard knocking horse and giving it a second chance. We need many many more people like you. Race training is not a recipe (which I’m sure you are perfectly well aware of) and what works for one horse does not work for another. Over the past couple decades, race training has progressed to a much lighter training schedule for horses that are racing fit and know what they are doing. For many horses, once the body is racing fit, you don’t need to keep pounding on them, and a lighter training schedule actually lets them recuperate and any mild damage heal. There is logic to that, and of course there are horses that defy logic and do just fine on a tougher regime, or even need a tougher regime to remain fit. That is where horsemanship comes in.

Joke’s on me - she’s got low grade issues I’ve spent a fortune trying to pinpoint (never gets better, never gets worse…). To top that off, she was diagnosed with lymphatic cancer - so something totally unrelated to her busting her butt on the track is going to take her out too early.

In the meantime, we’re out there having a blast. She’s a lioness. [ATTACH=JSON]{“alt”:“Click image for larger version Name: FV_Mini9June8679D63.jpg Views: 1 Size: 23.6 KB ID: 10417956”,“data-align”:“none”,“data-attachmentid”:“10417956”,“data-size”:“full”}[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=JSON]{“alt”:“Click image for larger version Name: FV_Mini9June8112D63.jpg Views: 2 Size: 26.9 KB ID: 10417960”,“data-align”:“none”,“data-attachmentid”:“10417960”,“data-size”:“medium”}[/ATTACH]

[LaurieB]

@endlessclimb she is beautiful, and the two of you look great together.

[endlessclimb]

FWIW, this mare doesn’t even have osselets. The worst she came off the track with is a couple wind puffs… that’s it. Absolutely incredible to me she doesn’t have more jewelry considering her schedule.

[endlessclimb]

@LaurieB

@endlessclimb she is beautiful, and the two of you look great together.

Thank you! Next horse needs to be a little less sensitive - while I can handle it, it can be really exhausting sometimes! That said, this mare loves me and we have a really bizarro relationship that ends up working out well. She’s my girl (whether I like it or not).

[LaurieB]

For those who may be unaware of this, not every horse is the same. Different horses require (and thrive with) different training and racing schedules. You can’t just look at dates and times and say whether or not a trainer is doing a good job.

Take Blue Point, for example.
Owned by Godolphin, trained by Charlie Appleby. The horse ran last week at Royal Ascot, arguably the most prestigious race meet in the world. Also one of the toughest, competition-wise.
On Tuesday, Blue Point won the G1 King Stand Stakes. On Saturday, he won the G1 Diamond Jubilee.

His trainer and owner thought he was capable of racing at the G1 level two times in 5 days. And they were right. It’s a good thing that internet horse trainers weren’t able to vote on whether or not that was a good idea and make Appleby put the horse away.

[snaffle1987]

@endlessclimb

All I know about this is my own experience, but the photo below is my own OTTB’s race record, which is arguably more aggressive towards the end than Kochees, as hers were actual races and not just 4F workouts.

She didn’t break down.
[ATTACH=JSON]{“alt”:“Click image for larger version Name: race record.JPG Views: 1 Size: 11.2 KB ID: 10417901”,“data-align”:“none”,“data-attachmentid”:“10417901”,“data-size”:“full”}[/ATTACH]

Edited in case the screenshot isn’t readable: Raced 2/22, 2/15, 2/8, 2/2, 1/21, 1/12, 1/4, 12/22, 12/14, 12/4 [short break switching tracks], 10/11, 10/2, 9/18, 9/10, 9/3, 8/25, 8/18, 8/7, 7/31, 7/24, 7/16, 7/8, 6/17, 6/11, 6/5… etc etc.

47 races under her belt. Most of those were a mile, give or take a bit.

was your horse listed by the vets as being unsound during the time> Unlikely. A lot of horses race hard. Especially those bottom feeders. A lot of horses race in the claimers. There is a difference between racing a sound horse hard and often and racing a horse with KNOWN problems and soundness issues and all the while being blacklisted by the bets. Kochees should’ve never been on the track and the Vets knew enough when they evaluated him to approve him to race.

Pretty horse and you;ve done a good job with her. I too have taken the hard knocking horses off the track and they are good, honest horses. Like any horse; they all have and can have low-grade issues. I guess it comes with the territory but the same goes for most performance horses as well.

[On_the_Farm]

@snaffle1987

The amount of people on here defending Hollendorfer is sickening to me.
I could care less how long he has been at this game or whether or not he’s in the HOF.

You all need to go look up what he did to poor Kochees since the time he claimed that poor horse a few months ago. It’s been documented in this thread in pages prior. Raced on 3/1, 4/19, 5/5 and 5/25. P.sted 4F workouts on 4/28, 5/13 and 5/21. The horse was already on the track vet’s radar and listed by them as being unsound. And yet, here is Hollendorfer pounding away on the poor horse, raced him on 5/5 then worked him on 5/13 and 5/21 before his final start 3 days later on 5/25 where he broke down. inexcusable.

The Veterinarians in charge on the panel, after their evaluations, scratched all of Hollendorfer’s horses for the weekend card. This was done after reviewing the horse’s race and veterinary records for those that raced over just the past 2 week period. These are panels of Veterinarians who made the call based on what they saw…Jerry Hollendorfer entering, working and racing unsound horses with known problems and issues.

As for the Songbird issues; all praise goes to an owner who actually knew something was amiss, was told by others that things were amiss, and stuck up for his horse and did what is right despite urgencies from the man he pays that she was fine. And yep he did own Eight Belles. And Eight Belles was in a barn that put it’s horses first. Eight Belles had no prior soundness issues and when she was purchased as a yearling for almost 400K; obviously didn’t have any major issues on her radiographs either. If Songbird could walk off the trailer at Rood & Riddle and those in attendance clearly see she was lame then, that answers the question.

My comment about him being a hall of famer wasn’t necessarily a defense, it was a comment about the relationships that occur between owner’s and trainers. Frankly, the vet scratches after the order to leave were probably nothing more than window dressing and the only legal way TSG could prevent JH from running those entries. Training a horse, especially those on the lower end who may have some chronic issues is not a cut and dry process. It’s not as simple as looking at a PPs and determining that a horse is going to break down in its next start or workout. These people have their eyes and hands, or are up, on these horses every day. If you were ever to go on a backstretch during training hours, one thing you would notice is that a lot of people have their attention focused downward. A horse’s stride or walk is scrutinized ad nauseam for the slightest difference from the day before; exercise riders are queried coming off the track, legs are checked before and after (at least I did.) What may be obvious to you looking at PPs might be totally different as to what’s being seen in the shedrow or track. And just like me and my old carcass, give one of these old campaigners who came of the stall a little off just a few minutes of walking and those aches and pains tend to disappear. Everyone wishes making decisions was simple and easy, but it’s not. If it were then the people who could fit everything they know about racing in a thimble would also be hall of famers.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@snaffle1987

You all need to go look up what he did to poor Kochees since the time he claimed that poor horse a few months ago. It’s been documented in this thread in pages prior. Raced on 3/1, 4/19, 5/5 and 5/25. P.sted 4F workouts on 4/28, 5/13 and 5/21. The horse was already on the track vet’s radar and listed by them as being unsound. And yet, here is Hollendorfer pounding away on the poor horse, raced him on 5/5 then worked him on 5/13 and 5/21 before his final start 3 days later on 5/25 where he broke down. inexcusable.

@snaffle1987

Jerry has been around the block like many. It shouldn’t matter if you run “cheaper” horses or not. The care, wellbeing, and health of what is in the stable should be paramount. Running and training horses into the ground and doing so with unsound horses with known issues is wrong and deserves to be investigated. Kochees was listed by the Vets in recent weeks/months when all of this went down.

Out of curiosity, do you know Hollendorfer personally or have any direct personal experience with him or are you judging just based on what you interpret off of track records and published by the media?

Kochees. If the horse, or any horse, is put on the vet’s list, there is protocol to be followed before the horse can be raced again. If, and I assume true, Kochees was placed on the vet’s list and followed the protocol to be allowed to train and race, is not some of the responsibility to be placed on the shoulders of the people who determined that Kochees was cleared to race?

I personally will always hesitate to throw anyone under any bus until I learn more knowing that the media, in particular, will love to slant “information” to prove the angle they are after. They take comments out of context, they use short sound bites that are hard to refute once they’re released. I won’t “convict” anyone until I learn more, regardless of the issue.

[endlessclimb]

@snaffle1987

was your horse listed by the vets as being unsound during the time> Unlikely. A lot of horses race hard. Especially those bottom feeders. A lot of horses race in the claimers. There is a difference between racing a sound horse hard and often and racing a horse with KNOWN problems and soundness issues and all the while being blacklisted by the bets. Kochees should’ve never been on the track and the Vets knew enough when they evaluated him to approve him to race.

Pretty horse and you;ve done a good job with her. I too have taken the hard knocking horses off the track and they are good, honest horses. Like any horse; they all have and can have low-grade issues. I guess it comes with the territory but the same goes for most performance horses as well.

It’s not like he was doing piss poor down there in the claimers yet was still being run into the ground - he had just pulled off a second place just over a month prior. He was going faster in every posted workout, not getting worse. How unsound could he have been? I, and you, can’t answer that - because we both don’t know the horse personally.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@snaffle1987

That’s not to say Bob doesn’t run claimers either. He does. And he does so with nice horses, well bred with well known owners/breeders.

But Baffert, don’t know but suspect, doesn’t run “bottom feeder” claimers, he runs, as you point out, nice horses who run in the higher level claimers.

[snaffle1987]

@Where'sMyWhite

Out of curiosity, do you know Hollendorfer personally or have any direct personal experience with him or are you judging just based on what you interpret off of track records and published by the media?

Kochees. If the horse, or any horse, is put on the vet’s list, there is protocol to be followed before the horse can be raced again. If, and I assume true, Kochees was placed on the vet’s list and followed the protocol to be allowed to train and race, is not some of the responsibility to be placed on the shoulders of the people who determined that Kochees was cleared to race?

I personally will always hesitate to throw anyone under any bus until I learn more knowing that the media, in particular, will love to slant “information” to prove the angle they are after. They take comments out of context, they use short sound bites that are hard to refute once they’re released. I won’t “convict” anyone until I learn more, regardless of the issue.

you can go look at Kochees track record and workouts and tell me that that isn’t overboard on a horse.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@snaffle1987

I think there is a lot more behind the scenes that the VETS (not Stronachs) know which led to this decision and I am sure it is not one taken lightly. 100 horses off the track is a financial hit to any institution, especially when they are frequent-running claimers (look at the race results).

Those tracks “welcoming” hollendorfer are blind and completely unaware of what is going on and it speaks volumes

According to the Blood Horse article, had 46 stalls at Santa Anita. Not sure where you got 100 from…

I have no idea how you can say that NYRA and Belmont and Saratoga are blind and completely unaware fo what’s going on. I would find it next to impossible to believe they have no idea what’s going on. Do you know how many horses Hollendorfer has raced at Belmont at the current meet and how many have broken down (probably not under Hollandorfer’s name but the NY based assistant trainer’s name)?

Maybe they see a different “truth” than you do… that Hollendorfer just maybe as been the victim of bad luck and timing and that he is the poster child scapegoat for TSG because their much vaunted new safety protocols aren’t the majikal pixie dust that animal rights and the media were hoping they were.

If I were Hollandorfer, I wouldn’t talk to the media either. Guaranteed sure way to have statements taken out of context

[Where_sMyWhite]

@snaffle1987

you can go look at Kochees track record and workouts and tell me that that isn’t overboard on a horse.

I won’t because I don’t know the horse. I don’t know what Kochees needed to be ready to race. I just don’t know. So, I don’t jump to conclusions based on my personal opinion.

[snaffle1987]

@Where'sMyWhite

But Baffert, don’t know but suspect, doesn’t run “bottom feeder” claimers, he runs, as you point out, nice horses who run in the higher level claimers.

Bafferts claimers run in the same races as Jerrys at Santa Anita. There is not claiming races for nicer horses vs garbage horses. Jerrys horses still have decent pedigrees and some of them pretty nicely bred. If we are pinpointing the bottome feeder claimers as the reason for the extreme amount of breakdowns at SA; perhaps we need to reassess the bottom feeder claimers and horse welfare

I love how Saratoga is welcoming him with open arms. A track that also has its fair share of fatality issues every year despite being one of the upper level tracks in the country

[snaffle1987]

@Where'sMyWhite

According to the Blood Horse article, had 46 stalls at Santa Anita. Not sure where you got 100 from…

I have no idea how you can say that NYRA and Belmont and Saratoga are blind and completely unaware fo what’s going on. I would find it next to impossible to believe they have no idea what’s going on. Do you know how many horses Hollendorfer has raced at Belmont at the current meet and how many have broken down (probably not under Hollandorfer’s name but the NY based assistant trainer’s name)?

Maybe they see a different “truth” than you do… that Hollendorfer just maybe as been the victim of bad luck and timing and that he is the poster child scapegoat for TSG because their much vaunted new safety protocols aren’t the majikal pixie dust that animal rights and the media were hoping they were.

If I were Hollandorfer, I wouldn’t talk to the media either. Guaranteed sure way to have statements taken out of context

Maybe the assistant in NY runs a tighter ship that the crew on the ship in California.

[snaffle1987]

@Where'sMyWhite

I won’t because I don’t know the horse. I don’t know what Kochees needed to be ready to race. I just don’t know. So, I don’t jump to conclusions based on my personal opinion.

if you cant assess the data that is on plain paper right in front of you then probably isn’t worth commenting. Kochees had a history of unsoundness. he was vet listed recently because of it. Never once did his training regimen or his racing plans ever let up on the poor beast to allow any proper healing time.

This is why vet records and vet lists and the whole nine yards should be made public. How the betting public still puts money on the horses in the track with any kind of faith and expecting honesty, is beyond me

[snaffle1987]

lets not forget Unique Bella who also had a long history of soundness issues in the very same barn. Suffered an ankle injury during morning workouts at Del Mar. Chip in her Sesamoid

CHRB operates separately of SA. They eliminated him from the weekend of racing based on all of the vet data they had access to. This speaks volumes to me.

[LaurieB]

@snaffle1987

This is why vet records and vet lists and the whole nine yards should be made public. How the betting public still puts money on the horses in the track with any kind of faith and expecting honesty, is beyond me

Just because you haven’t bothered to look for stuff doesn’t mean it’s a secret.

Vet lists are public. Everyone who wants the info has access to it.

Here’s the one for the CHRB:. http://www.chrb.ca.gov/veterinary.html