Santa Anita- do you think somethings up?

[LaurieB]

@snaffle1987

lets not forget Unique Bella who also had a long history of soundness issues in the very same barn. Suffered an ankle injury during morning workouts at Del Mar. Chip in her Sesamoid

Do you just make this stuff up?

Unique Bella ran 12 times over two years, starting when she was 2. She ran in 10 graded stakes (6 of them Grade 1s) and won 8 of the 10. She took some time off in the middle of her 3yo year for a “shin issue” then came roaring back to win a G3 in October and go straight to the Breeders Cup. She ran in 5 G1 stakes over the next seven months, winning 4 of them and placing 2nd in the other. She was then retired with an ankle chip.

Where in that schedule do you see “a long history of unsoundness issues?” :rolleyes:

[On_the_Farm]

@Where'sMyWhite

I won’t because I don’t know the horse. I don’t know what Kochees needed to be ready to race. I just don’t know. So, I don’t jump to conclusions based on my personal opinion.

He could have easily been one of those ready to wreck the shedrow and everyone in it if he didn’t get the edge knocked off with regular workouts. I don’t know that because just like you, i didn’t know the horse, but it’s a plausible explanation. A lot more believable than someone keyboard hustling that the outfit didn’t care at all.

[TCA_Arabians]

And now this: A bill has passed the State Senate in CA that gives the Racing Board the power to suspend racing without a10-day-notice. It states the Gov. still has to sign it. But, I think the State Assembly will have to pass it too.
https://www.latimes.com/sports/more/la-sp-gavin-newsom-chrb-california-horse-racing-20190624-story.html

[Palm_Beach]

@LaurieB

For those who may be unaware of this, not every horse is the same. Different horses require (and thrive with) different training and racing schedules. You can’t just look at dates and times and say whether or not a trainer is doing a good job.

Take Blue Point, for example.
Owned by Godolphin, trained by Charlie Appleby. The horse ran last week at Royal Ascot, arguably the most prestigious race meet in the world. Also one of the toughest, competition-wise.
On Tuesday, Blue Point won the G1 King Stand Stakes. On Saturday, he won the G1 Diamond Jubilee.

His trainer and owner thought he was capable of racing at the G1 level two times in 5 days. And they were right. It’s a good thing that internet horse trainers weren’t able to vote on whether or not that was a good idea and make Appleby put the horse away.

CHRB would have shut that thing down for sure.

[Palm_Beach]

@snaffle1987

I love how Saratoga is welcoming him with open arms. A track that also has its fair share of fatality issues every year despite being one of the upper level tracks in the country

NYRA is Saratoga, Belmont and Aqueduct.

The CHRB is the regulatory authority over all racing in CA. Stronach owns Santa Anita and other tracks across the country. Hollendorfer has been banned from all Stronach owned tracks.

To get off the vets list in most states, the horse has to work at least a half in front of the state vet and the vet pulls blood and sends it off for testing, and the test has to come back clean before the horse comes off the list. The horse also has to be evaluated for soundness by the state vet after the work. The test results can take 2 weeks or more. Kochees was never on the vets list at the time of his last 3 starts.

[snaffle1987]

@Palm Beach

NYRA is Saratoga, Belmont and Aqueduct.

The CHRB is the regulatory authority over all racing in CA. Stronach owns Santa Anita and other tracks across the country. Hollendorfer has been banned from all Stronach owned tracks.

To get off the vets list in most states, the horse has to work at least a half in front of the state vet and the vet pulls blood and sends it off for testing, and the test has to come back clean before the horse comes off the list. The horse also has to be evaluated for soundness by the state vet after the work. The test results can take 2 weeks or more. Kochees was never on the vets list at the time of his last 3 starts.

yes, he is welcome at all NYRA tracks but like SA, Belmont shutters its doors for the summer and most trainers there head to the Spa for the summer meet, then return to Belmont in the fall. Not sure where Hollendorfers few Belmont runners usually transit to; but the Spa is usually the go-to summer place for those who like to run the NRA circuit.

[Where_sMyWhite]

Not to mention that both Kochees and American Currency were partly owned by Hollendorfer. Why on earth would a part-owner knowingly send out a questionably unsound horse to race?

Or does this detail not factor into the Hollendorfer witch hunt?

[Palm_Beach]

@Where'sMyWhite

Not to mention that both Kochees and American Currency were partly owned by Hollendorfer. Why on earth would a part-owner knowingly send out a questionably unsound horse to race?

Or does this detail not factor into the Hollendorfer witch hunt?

There are owners who don’t care. They just want to get out from under the horse.

Not sure why you are calling this a witch hunt, Stronach has thrown people off their tracks before. It’s always people who have a bad reputation for something or other.

[Palm_Beach]

@snaffle1987

yes, he is welcome at all NYRA tracks but like SA, Belmont shutters its doors for the summer and most trainers there head to the Spa for the summer meet, then return to Belmont in the fall. Not sure where Hollendorfers few Belmont runners usually transit to; but the Spa is usually the go-to summer place for those who like to run the NRA circuit.

There are plenty of trainers at Belmont all summer, as stall space is limited at Saratoga and competition fierce, so only the horses that trainers are planning on running at Saratoga go up there. NYRA shuttles horses based at Belmont up to Saratoga. The Saratoga meet is only 7.5 weeks.

[Where_sMyWhite]

Interesting commentary from an article in Thoroughbred Daily News 6/23/2019

Cassidy said this:

“The racing surface, since we’ve gotten rid of all the rain, has been in great shape. As far as blaming the trainers, it seems everybody wants to blame the trainers, no matter what the situation is. We take [flak] because when one guy has a problem, we’re all pointed at. If people are looking at you with wide eyes, everybody has to be very careful. But even if you’re very careful, you can still have an accident. It’s inevitable. There’s nothing we can do about that. You just have to take all the corrective measures you can to make sure that you’re not doing anything blatant.”

Both TSG and the California Horse Racing Board (CHRB) have mandated a slew of changes to training and racing protocols over the past half year. Is there anything the CTT believes those organizations should be doing differently?

“To be quite honest with you, I don’t know what else they could possibly do,” Cassidy said. “They’re pulling out all the stops. They’re watching these horses from morning until evening when the races are over. There are veterinarians all over the place watching horses. The trainers are watching their own horses. I’ve never seen it cared for like this before.”

PB, I was unable to quickly find what other trainers have been thrown off tracks by TSG. Who are they?

[Palm_Beach]

Juan Vazquez, Hector Garcia, Kirk Zaidie. I think Stronach allows entries from Vazquez now.

[skydy]

@LaurieB

For those who may be unaware of this, not every horse is the same. Different horses require (and thrive with) different training and racing schedules. You can’t just look at dates and times and say whether or not a trainer is doing a good job.

Take Blue Point, for example.
Owned by Godolphin, trained by Charlie Appleby. The horse ran last week at Royal Ascot, arguably the most prestigious race meet in the world. Also one of the toughest, competition-wise.
On Tuesday, Blue Point won the G1 King Stand Stakes. On Saturday, he won the G1 Diamond Jubilee.

His trainer and owner thought he was capable of racing at the G1 level two times in 5 days. And they were right. It’s a good thing that internet horse trainers weren’t able to vote on whether or not that was a good idea and make Appleby put the horse away.

This is very true, but to be fair, the U.K. doesn’t have the breakdown rate that we have in the U.S.

LaurieB, I respect your opinion and I know you care very much for your horses.What do you think is the problem at Santa Anita? Is it the track?

[Pronzini]

@Palm Beach

Juan Vazquez, Hector Garcia, Kirk Zaidie. I think Stronach allows entries from Vazquez now.

I had to look your list up because I’m not on the East Coast. Vazquez and Garcia were ruled off by the Maryland Jockey Club. Isn’t that the equivalent of the CHRB? Kirk Ziadie was denied a license by the “Division of Pari-Mutuel Wagering” and I don’t know who they are but it sounds pretty governmental. If it is, that is not The Stronach Group.

Now I know people who have been booted out of Santa Anita (generally temporarily) but it was for being a thief, fighting, personal drug use and sexual harassment. What I don’t know of is a licensed trainer like Hollendorfer who is shown the door with no official action pending and after his entries have been taken. That is pretty extraordinary IME.

[Palm_Beach]

Stronach owns MJC (Pimlico and Laurel) and Gulfstream (and others) banned Kirk Zaidie from all Stronach tracks during the stay of his suspension.

[Where_sMyWhite]

According to TSG’s web page they own

Santa Anita
Gulfstream Park
Maryland Jockey Club (Pimlico and Laurel Park)
Golden Gate Fields
Portland Meadows
Rosecroft

Kirk Ziadie was initially banned (which was subsequently stayed in court) in Florida for 6 years for multiple Clenbuterol positives (18 med violations over 2 1/2 years). This was the time frame that TSG banned him from Gulfstream Park.

I’m trying to see how Hollendorfer compared to Ziadie who was facing a 6 year suspension for multiple drug positives. Not seeing the equivalent by Hollendorfer. Sure, TSG can ban anyone they want from their property. What they, IMO, didn’t do is explain exactly what Holldendorfer did other than bad timing with a horse breaking down. I still question why no one is bringing up if TSGs much vaunted safety protocols aren’t being followed or don’t they really work? Heck, just blame the trainer.

PB, it’s Ziadie not Zaidie

[vineyridge]

Another NYTimes article from yesterday: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/26/sports/santa-anita-horse-deaths.html

Nothing new.

[snaffle1987]

[B]I think the NYT article is well written and factual. It is clear that officials are watching what is going on. They even are watching what is going on via surveillance in the barns.

Case in point, the trainer of Tick Tock was caught on the day SA reopened drugging the horse prior to a race; via barn surveillance. This isn’t something that is just happening at SA. They are just devoting massive amounts of time and resources to catch it; and they are. There are bad apples in every bunch but this is happening all over the place in big and small stable units. How on Earth do you stop it?

We know of the pressure at Stronach tracks to race horses. this article encapsulates that. Tracks have to pay bills and in order to do that, horses need to race. How do you walk that fine line?

Records have proven that the track allowed trainers with drug violations to continue to race and train under no further scrutiny.

CHRB acknowledges all of the above happened and that, according to vet records, horses were raced and trained that shouldn’t have been on the track. That blame falls on both sides of the table: both from a SA regulation standpoint and a trainer doing right by the equine athlete. This isn’t just a SA problem; this is happening to equine athletes in stables all over the country. SA is just seeing massive PR for it because of the amount of deaths that piled up.

If those within racing, from big guys to little guys, can’t curb this by acknowledging there is a problem and make efforts (together) to fix it; sadly I see no large-scale future for racing in America. The sport is going to dig its own grave. Breeders/owners/trainers rely on the existance of tracks to make their living and keep their hobby alive. Breeding establishments rely on the above individuals to keep their businesses profitable. Tracks operate because of the vested interest of the betting public. When you lose the betting public, all tracks will end up like Suffolk Downs and no track will be exempt from that due to historical significance when their land value is worth so much to develop

[/B]

[snaffle1987]

and for those that care to know, Tick Tock was still breezing at SA as of last week. So why want that training camp vacated from the stables after knowingly getting caught administering milkshakes amongst this mess. He also had horses on the card the last week at SA with an entry in the G3 stakes./ sick and sad.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@snaffle1987

I think the NYT article is well written and factual.

Maybe “factual” but as in many articles, how the “facts” are represented may lead to false conclusions.

For example

Santa Anita ran 111 races on its main track when the surface was listed as either “muddy,” “sloppy” or “off,” compared with only 18 during the same period the previous winter, according to industry records.

While that, in fact, may be true, did anyone do a weather comparison to know if this is a reasonable comparison?

If the problem is the track, why are trainers being thrown under the bus?

The article is always careful to use words like ‘may’ or ‘might’ or ‘probably’ …

Tom Knust, a former Santa Anita racing secretary who is now a jockey’s agent, said it had probably been a mistake to run so many races during the rainy season

An easy statement to make now and definitely worded as to be not conclusive.

Throwing out a smattering of “facts” does not, IMO, lead to useful conclusions

[LaurieB]

@snaffle1987

[B]I think the NYT article is well written and factual. It is clear that officials are watching what is going on. They even are watching what is going on via surveillance in the barns.

Case in point, the trainer of Tick Tock was caught on the day SA reopened drugging the horse prior to a race; via barn surveillance. This isn’t something that is just happening at SA. They are just devoting massive amounts of time and resources to catch it; and they are. There are bad apples in every bunch but this is happening all over the place in big and small stable units. How on Earth do you stop it?

We know of the pressure at Stronach tracks to race horses. this article encapsulates that. Tracks have to pay bills and in order to do that, horses need to race. How do you walk that fine line?

Records have proven that the track allowed trainers with drug violations to continue to race and train under no further scrutiny.

CHRB acknowledges all of the above happened and that, according to vet records, horses were raced and trained that shouldn’t have been on the track. That blame falls on both sides of the table: both from a SA regulation standpoint and a trainer doing right by the equine athlete. This isn’t just a SA problem; this is happening to equine athletes in stables all over the country. SA is just seeing massive PR for it because of the amount of deaths that piled up.

If those within racing, from big guys to little guys, can’t curb this by acknowledging there is a problem and make efforts (together) to fix it; sadly I see no large-scale future for racing in America. The sport is going to dig its own grave. Breeders/owners/trainers rely on the existance of tracks to make their living and keep their hobby alive. Breeding establishments rely on the above individuals to keep their businesses profitable. Tracks operate because of the vested interest of the betting public. When you lose the betting public, all tracks will end up like Suffolk Downs and no track will be exempt from that due to historical significance when their land value is worth so much to develop[/B]

snaffle, why are you yelling at us?