Santa Anita- do you think somethings up?

[vineyridge]

Laurie B. a better analogy would be elderly people lconfined to nursing homes. And, while great care is provided in many nursing homes, wouldn’t you agree that there are many crappy nursing homes with terrible care. Would you say that the people who run nursing homes and are licensed and regulated shouldn’t have to take formal continuing education to keep their licenses and meet specified standards because they have great experience with the elderly, see doctors regularly and are visited by medical salespeople?

The nursing home administrators and staff see them 24/7 and are legally responsible for their care. And make their livings off them. The residents are completely dependent on them.

Some nursing home residents can’t communicate either.

I personally think that it’s great that research can verify what people have believed, because people believe many untrue things.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@snaffle1987

and this is the problem with the modern world of internet and social media. Every bonafide horse owner, “trainer”, considers themselves a professional on everything concerning a horse.

A “trainer” in your terms, IMO, have no comparison to an at-the-track race horse trainer who lives with the horses they are responsible for 7 days a week for multiple hours a day. They’re overseeing feeding, prep, ride, cool-down, you name it. They’re talking to the riders, vets, hot walkers, stable workers (feed, cleaning the stalls, etc) every day.

Do you really think that a track trainer doesn’t talk to the vet about new modalities for diagnosis and treatment? Do you really think that a track trainer doesn’t talk to reps from pharmaceutical companies about possible new meds (and if they fit into the track/state requirements for pre-racing medication and withdrawal?)

[snaffle1987]

@skydy

Morey; https://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/william-morey-slapped-with-45-day-suspension-for-illegal-race-day-treatments/

it is interesting to Note that TICK TOCK hasn’t raced since April. And her last start she was raced under trainer Andrew Lerner. Her start prior to that, April 12, she was also trainer by Lerner. She was last trained by Morey in her third start on Feb 22. Morey got caught on March 22 and his horses scratched. So between March 22 and Early April, Tick Tock found another trainer on the same backside at SA. William Morey knew exactly what was coming and it wasn’t, per his lawyer, the administration method of the drug.

30 and 45 day suspensions for doping your horses. This is why Stronachs took it into their own hands and eliminated them from their tracks. Its a zero tolerance policy that is going to fix this industry. Don’t point fingers at Stronachs and call foul. Dirt bags like this deserve to get the boot and passive, 30 day suspensions for horse doping, isn’t going to fix anything.

Blood Buffer is used in the same process as “Milkshaking”. Do your research.

As for the Hollendorfer camp. I think it says volumes that NYRA first welcomed him and a few short days later, told him he wasn’t welcome. Its pretty simple to figure out. Officials in California informed NYRA what was happening. Based on that knowledge, They retracted their statement and Jerry is banned. So stop hiding behind smoke and mirrors and understand that there is a lot more information that CHRB had gathered on Jerry prior to Stronachs deciding to ban him. If it comes to that level; it’ll all come to light in a courtroom.

This is the same situation as the local pedophile who was finally caught by police and those closest to the accused coming out to adamantly state “but he was always such a nice guy.”… yea.

[Texarkana]

I don’t think outsiders are going to make any headway trying to tell insiders they need better/continuing education.

Does that ever work in any situation?

[skydy]

@snaffle1987

it is interesting to Note that TICK TOCK hasn’t raced since April. And her last start she was raced under trainer Andrew Lerner. Her start prior to that, April 12, she was also trainer by Lerner. She was last trained by Morey in her third start on Feb 22. Morey got caught on March 22 and his horses scratched. So between March 22 and Early April, Tick Tock found another trainer on the same backside at SA. William Morey knew exactly what was coming and it wasn’t, per his lawyer, the administration method of the drug.

30 and 45 day suspensions for doping your horses. This is why Stronachs took it into their own hands and eliminated them from their tracks. Its a zero tolerance policy that is going to fix this industry. Don’t point fingers at Stronachs and call foul. Dirt bags like this deserve to get the boot and passive, 30 day suspensions for horse doping, isn’t going to fix anything.

Blood Buffer is used in the same process as “Milkshaking”. Do your research.

As for the Hollendorfer camp. I think it says volumes that NYRA first welcomed him and a few short days later, told him he wasn’t welcome. Its pretty simple to figure out. Officials in California informed NYRA what was happening. Based on that knowledge, They retracted their statement and Jerry is banned. So stop hiding behind smoke and mirrors and understand that there is a lot more information that CHRB had gathered on Jerry prior to Stronachs deciding to ban him. If it comes to that level; it’ll all come to light in a courtroom.

This is the same situation as the local pedophile who was finally caught by police and those closest to the accused coming out to adamantly state “but he was always such a nice guy.”… yea.

To whom are you lecturing?

[snaffle1987]

@Where'sMyWhite

A “trainer” in your terms, IMO, have no comparison to an at-the-track race horse trainer who lives with the horses they are responsible for 7 days a week for multiple hours a day. They’re overseeing feeding, prep, ride, cool-down, you name it. They’re talking to the riders, vets, hot walkers, stable workers (feed, cleaning the stalls, etc) every day.

Do you really think that a track trainer doesn’t talk to the vet about new modalities for diagnosis and treatment? Do you really think that a track trainer doesn’t talk to reps from pharmaceutical companies about possible new meds (and if they fit into the track/state requirements for pre-racing medication and withdrawal?)

I didn’t deny that a trainer does any of the above. People who board and train horses of any discipline do all of the above, everyday, 24/7.

A trainer does not = a vet. No matter how much they are involved or how much tribal knowledge they have amassed. trainers shouldn’t just be talking to pharma companies about what they think is best for the horse in regards to new meds. Pharma companies jobs are to sell product. What the racing industry needs less of is LESS MEDS. Talk to your vet about what you should use, why, and when. And if you see something you want to try, always talk to your vet first, never the salesman.

[skydy]

@snaffle1987

and this is the problem with the modern world of internet and social media. Every bonafide horse owner, “trainer”, considers themselves a professional on everything concerning a horse. Go to vet school then consider yourself a professional on the makings of a horse, treating a horse, diagnosing a horse, etc.

Get your doctorate and then call yourself a know-it-all on the subject. as I noted in my post above, trainers and owners, despite many years in the profession, can only diagnose and treat so far, and most of their knowledge is handed down to them. Not always the “right” knowledge.

That is why race trainers frequently consult with their veterinarians. What is your point?

[Palm_Beach]

@snaffle1987

Every bonafide horse owner, “trainer”, considers themselves a professional on everything concerning a horse.

Speak for yourself. Oh wait, you already do.

[Palm_Beach]

@snaffle1987

What the racing industry needs less of is LESS MEDS. Talk to your vet about what you should use, why, and when. And if you see something you want to try, always talk to your vet first, never the salesman.

Have never seen a pharmaceutical salesperson at the track pushing medications. Never ever.

Snaffy, the trainer gets the medication from the vet, and there are many medications that must be administered by the vet and cannot be administered by the trainer, and/or cannot be in the possession of the trainer. The owners are rarely involved at all, they just get the bill.

[snaffle1987]

@Texarkana

I don’t think outsiders are going to make any headway trying to tell insiders they need better/continuing education.

Does that ever work in any situation?

I was being sarcastic. BUt you are an advocate for using tribal knowledge, perhaps incorrect knowledge to work up a horse instead of call the vet, a person who has been thoroughly educated in anatomy, treatments and diagnostics?

The rhetorical answer I see on this thread is trainers and owners not spending the money to get treatment or diagnostics that are the next step up, especially when you start diving into the claimers and lower rank tracks. Why? Because of cost. Lets be frank: Veterinary work is expensive, and that cost triples with new technology and scans, etc. Is a horse at the lowest rank of claimers worth it to their connections to warrant spending that kind of money on diagnostics? Or does it make financial sense to them to turn it out for 3 months and wait and see

“Make education a never ending process”
“Willingness to learn is a choice”

Just because Pops did it in 1970 on the backside doesn’t make it the right way to do things. And we all know so many trainers often operate this way in day to day activities, but not all. When in doubt call the vet and develop a very hands on relationship with your vet or if you are that interested in learning more about anatomy and physiology, go get your doctorate of veterinary sciences and become the professional.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@snaffle1987

As for the Hollendorfer camp. I think it says volumes that NYRA first welcomed him and a few short days later, told him he wasn’t welcome. Its pretty simple to figure out. Officials in California informed NYRA what was happening. Based on that knowledge, They retracted their statement and Jerry is banned. So stop hiding behind smoke and mirrors and understand that there is a lot more information that CHRB had gathered on Jerry prior to Stronachs deciding to ban him. If it comes to that level; it’ll all come to light in a courtroom.

I don’t think anyone is having an issue with Morey’s suspension and ban by TSG.

It sounds like you are definitely connected with the inside scoop on Hollendorfer… care to share with the rest of us?

CHRB to the best of my knowledge hasn’t suspended Hollendorfer so nothing there.

TSG banned Hollendorfer from their tracks and NYRA followed suit.

Maybe the ‘hiding behind smoke and mirrors’ should be on TSG’s shoulders and not the rest of us who want to know the reason for the TSG ban other than smoke and mirrors.

What did CHRB gather on Hollendorfer that they passed on to TSG and subsequently NYRA that was NOT passed on to the public??

IMO, and I’ve said this before, Hollendorfer’s business and career, both present and future are in shambles over something that is “smoke and mirrors”.

If it’s so obvious, what exactly is it?? Details please.

[Palm_Beach]

@snaffle1987

Blood Buffer is used in the same process as “Milkshaking”. Do your research.

Nope, Blood Buffer is very different from milkshaking. Go back and do more research.

[Texarkana]

@snaffle1987

I was being sarcastic. BUt you are an advocate for using tribal knowledge, perhaps incorrect knowledge to work up a horse instead of call the vet, a person who has been thoroughly educated in anatomy, treatments and diagnostics?

The rhetorical answer I see on this thread is trainers and owners not spending the money to get treatment or diagnostics that are the next step up, especially when you start diving into the claimers and lower rank tracks. Why? Because of cost. Lets be frank: Veterinary work is expensive, and that cost triples with new technology and scans, etc. Is a horse at the lowest rank of claimers worth it to their connections to warrant spending that kind of money on diagnostics? Or does it make financial sense to them to turn it out for 3 months and wait and see

“Make education a never ending process”
“Willingness to learn is a choice”

Just because Pops did it in 1970 on the backside doesn’t make it the right way to do things. And we all know so many trainers often operate this way in day to day activities, but not all. When in doubt call the vet and develop a very hands on relationship with your vet or if you are that interested in learning more about anatomy and physiology, go get your doctorate of veterinary sciences and become the professional.

Where did I say I was an advocate for using “tribal knowledge?”

But right now, I will say what myself and others have said to you before: you don’t know what you don’t know.

From your posts, it is 120% obvious to anyone with an iota of track experience that you have none.

Some of the criticisms you are trying to make have valid roots, but you twist them into this alternate reality of things that aren’t actually happening. Anywhere.

[vineyridge]

@Texarkana

I don’t think outsiders are going to make any headway trying to tell insiders they need better/continuing education.

Does that ever work in any situation?

Actually, it may, if combined with discipline. Certainly much of Title VII employment discrimination law is built on educating employees on what is allowed and what is not allowed; employers provide the training. I’d say that the workplace for humans has drastically changed since Title VII was passed and amended in 1972. It may not be perfect, but it is DRASTICALLY different.

[Texarkana]

@vineyridge

Actually, it may, if combined with discipline. Certainly much of Title VII employment discrimination law is built on educating employees on what is allowed and what is not allowed; employers provide the training. I’d say that the workplace for humans has drastically changed since Title VII was passed and amended in 1972. It may not be perfect, but it is DRASTICALLY different.

blinks

How does that even remotely apply to this discussion?

[Palm_Beach]

@vineyridge

Sitting down and getting it in a structured presentation and a quiet environment is far more conducive to learning and understanding than getting it in the rushed context of daily problems.
.

The trainer exists in a rushed context of daily problems. Many don’t take days off or go away on vacation. Even if there is not something going on with their own horses, they are watching races from all over the country because that is what they need to do to be successful. Their phones are constantly ringing, beginning at 5 AMish. It’s an exhausting way of life. Weekends, holiday, etc.

[Palm_Beach]

@Texarkana

blinks

How does that even remotely apply to this discussion?

viney took your “any situation” comment literally.

[vineyridge]

@Palm Beach

Have never seen a pharmaceutical salesperson at the track pushing medications. Never ever.

Snaffy, the trainer gets the medication from the vet, and there are many medications that must be administered by the vet and cannot be administered by the trainer, and/or cannot be in the possession of the trainer. The owners are rarely involved at all, they just get the bill.

LaurieB said medical supply salesmen were running around the backside. Whether they were selling or not selling supplements (like Blood Buffer) etc. was not made clear.

[Palm_Beach]

@Where'sMyWhite

Maybe the ‘hiding behind smoke and mirrors’ should be on TSG’s shoulders and not the rest of us who want to know the reason for the TSG ban other than smoke and mirrors.

If it’s so obvious, what exactly is it?? Details please.

6 dead horses doesn’t do it for you? How many does it take?

[vineyridge]

@Texarkana

blinks

How does that even remotely apply to this discussion?

Changing a culture is difficult, but it can be done.