Sarapin

[horsepoor]

So just curious what you all think of a vet that regularly includes sarapin in his joint injection cocktail? So when he does hock injections, say, they get the usual depo/HA plus sarapin. He doesn’t work on my horses anymore, but when he did, I wouldn’t let him use the sarapin. What I’m reading here makes me think it was being used by that vet to get a quick reaction (pain relief).

As for the OP, I don’t think it was that bad to just ask the question that they did, and I sure don’t feel the need to jump on them for asking. Someone suggested “x” to them, they weren’t familiar with “x” so they asked about it here. I didn’t take it to mean they were looking for a quick fix or way to cheat, etc. just a simple question, and good of some of you to answer just that, without judgement.

[judybigredpony]

Ummm from the racetrack its used to inject feet as in short acting block…oohh and some “AA” trainers have been know to use it for same…;)…not fiction

[Calvincrowe]

I think after all the dead pony drama, and the multiple “drugged horses in the show ring” threads, that folks are gun shy. The OP should have Googled sarapin, and done some research. She was very short in her reply to me, and that’s her right, but for goodness sake–give us some more information about your training issues and maybe someone here can give you some new ideas to try before giving a drug to your horse to alter his behavior.

[RAyers]

[QUOTE=horsepoor;6561619]
So just curious what you all think of a vet that regularly includes sarapin in his joint injection cocktail? So when he does hock injections, say, they get the usual depo/HA plus sarapin. He doesn’t work on my horses anymore, but when he did, I wouldn’t let him use the sarapin. What I’m reading here makes me think it was being used by that vet to get a quick reaction (pain relief).

As for the OP, I don’t think it was that bad to just ask the question that they did, and I sure don’t feel the need to jump on them for asking. Someone suggested “x” to them, they weren’t familiar with “x” so they asked about it here. I didn’t take it to mean they were looking for a quick fix or way to cheat, etc. just a simple question, and good of some of you to answer just that, without judgement.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps, but insert carbocaine, lidocaine, or alcohol for serapin and we automatically know what is happening. Those are not drugs used for training or helping an animal. And even if the OP is completely innocent - which I did not get based on her initial replies - then she is associating with a person who is cheating and is being used.

And, yes, vets will inject it into the hocks to deaden peripheral nerves, enabling the animal to continue to preform on damaged tissues. A violation of the hippocratic oath and partial proof of unethical behavior.

[horsepoor]

[QUOTE=RAyers;6561826]

And, yes, vets will inject it into the hocks to deaden peripheral nerves, enabling the animal to continue to preform on damaged tissues. A violation of the hippocratic oath and partial proof of unethical behavior.[/QUOTE]

Kind of my take on it, and part of why I won’t use this vet anymore. Wasn’t just hocks, either…seemed to be the standard injection formula for any joint.:eek:

[mvp]

I don’t know diddly about the drug in question.

OP, it sounds like others inject it locally-- the IM vs. IV question doesn’t seem to make sense.

In regards to using it at home for whatever it does-- kill pain or kill worry, why not try it once and see what you get? Your vet should be able to explain it’s physiological effects. After that, you might have more info about why your jumper is worried.

Seriously, folks, let people experiment at home on their own animals if they wish. So long as no one is using drugs illegally at shows, I don’t see a huge, huge problem. People who ignore the causes of their animals’ poor performance it will continue to return. And a horse who is wiggy at home but cured there in a “fake” way is likely to have that behavior come back at shows.

I don’t know any horseman who has misread the cause of some horse’s bad behavior and found out that he was wrong later… at least once or twice. If this is the OP’s time to experiment, let her/him.

[RAyers]

[QUOTE=mvp;6562794]

In regards to using it at home for whatever it does-- kill pain or kill worry, why not try it once and see what you get? Your vet should be able to explain it’s physiological effects. After that, you might have more info about why your jumper is worried.

Seriously, folks, let people experiment at home on their own animals if they wish. So long as no one is using drugs illegally at shows, I don’t see a huge, huge problem. People who ignore the causes of their animals’ poor performance it will continue to return. And a horse who is wiggy at home but cured there in a “fake” way is likely to have that behavior come back at shows.

I don’t know any horseman who has misread the cause of some horse’s bad behavior and found out that he was wrong later… at least once or twice. If this is the OP’s time to experiment, let her/him.[/QUOTE]

It is cavalier and frankly ignorant attitude that really is the bane of horse sports. You suggest animal experimentation is OK!

As a medical researcher, I have seen the damage and death that happens when a person with no understanding of a drug or medical procedure decides to experiment. That is why we have MASSIVE oversight.

This drug has already been PROVEN to have NONE of the effects the OP seeks. It does not act on the pathways that would need to be affected. Please bone up on the scientific literature and facts before advocating such idiocy.

This is why horses die foolishly and stupidly at the hands of trainers and owners. They decide to experiment with drugs they have no knowledge. And if the vet is half their worth they will kindly guide the OP away from this folly.

[Xctrygirl]

Ok… so “experimenting” at home is ok…

Tell you what why not try giving Procaine penicillin Iv. It could do wonders for the constant drag on your bank account.

Seriously. It’s “fine” to use drugs that do NOTHING to affect the system in question as long as you do it at home with your own horse???

Holy Hell… I am not even sure I am believing that I read that.

Hey why you’re at it, why not throw some cocaine at a sleepy horse. That could help also. You’re just “experimenting” so why not??!!

Unreal.

~Emily

[mvp]

[QUOTE=RAyers;6562888]
It is cavalier and frankly ignorant attitude that really is the bane of horse sports. You suggest animal experimentation is OK!

As a medical researcher, I have seen the damage and death that happens when a person with no understanding of a drug or medical procedure decides to experiment. That is why we have MASSIVE oversight.

This drug has already been PROVEN to have NONE of the effects the OP seeks. It does not act on the pathways that would need to be affected. Please bone up on the scientific literature and facts before advocating such idiocy.

This is why horses die foolishly and stupidly at the hands of trainers and owners. They decide to experiment with drugs they have no knowledge. And if the vet is half their worth they will kindly guide the OP away from this folly.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Xctrygirl;6562893]Ok… so “experimenting” at home is ok…

Tell you what why not try giving Procaine penicillin Iv. It could do wonders for the constant drag on your bank account.

Seriously. It’s “fine” to use drugs that do NOTHING to affect the system in question as long as you do it at home with your own horse???

Holy Hell… I am not even sure I am believing that I read that.

Hey why you’re at it, why not throw some cocaine at a sleepy horse. That could help also. You’re just “experimenting” so why not??!!

Unreal.

~Emily[/QUOTE]

Unreal my big butt!

Y’all have never given a horse Bute without calling a DVM when he was sore? How about Banamine for what looked like a colic to you in your non-DVM opinion? Because, hey, you were getting your vet to break the law there.

You have never asked a horse to try “one more time” to get something he couldn’t at the end of a training session, overtaxed him and had to just find some way to quit for the day because you guessed wrong about how much mental or physical energy the animal had left?

You haven’t turned a horse out with another, not being sure they would get along, and then found out you were wrong, having to quickly dive in and pull one out?

You have never tied a reliable horse to something and found out that he could get scared and pull back?

Really? You have never done any of these common “experiments” and discovered that your prediction had been wrong?

Look, I don’t know anyone who would start injecting this-n-that without a conversation with a DVM-- even if only to get the stuff from him/her. Maybe I don’t run with the right crowd.

I assume the OP would do this as well. If I were in the OP’s spot, I probably wouldn’t ask for more opinions here, given the deeper faith I put in my vet. But if she wants to ask, who cares? I don’t think the OP herself is going to be drawing up syringes and finding a way to get into a joint capsule, do you?

And in my professional life, I look carefully at experiments and the questions they are purported to answer with unimpeachable authority. There’s better and worse science out there, folks. That’s why I don’t see the need to get riled up about the use of the term “experiment” they way you guys do. PhDs do good and bad experiments; lay people do good and bad experiments.

[RAyers]

mvp, give it up. You realize your examples have nothing to do with the use of a well defined local anesthetic. A better example would be are you willing to do IV injection of carbocaine? THAT is experimentation.

Experimentation as you define it is what I call “Hold my beer and let’s see what happens.” That is not good, especially when the welfare of an animal is at stake. I have killed horses experimenting with what, at the time were considered benign investigational drugs. At least I had a full-on experimental protocol and had done significant research before attempting. AND these animals had veterinary oversight from day one.

And now you seem to think the OP would be injecting into the joint capsule? Did you read the first post? She is discussing a systemic application (IV/IM) as was told to her. It becomes obvious that whoever suggested this has no idea what they are doing.

[Gaga]

I have heard of people injecting Sarapin IV (which is off-label use) to quiet/relax horses. If they ever develop a test for it, I’d expect quite a few trainers to go on vacation.

[mvp]

Yabbut, reread the first post where I say that I don’t know diddly about this particular drug. If you say it’s a local anesthetic, then I believe you.

[QUOTE=RAyers;6563283]
mvp, give it up. You realize your examples have nothing to do with the use of a well defined local anesthetic. A better example would be are you willing to do IV injection of carbocaine? THAT is experimentation.

Experimentation as you define it is what I call “Hold my beer and let’s see what happens.” That is not good, especially when the welfare of an animal is at stake. I have killed horses experimenting with what, at the time were considered benign investigational drugs. At least I had a full-on experimental protocol and had done significant research before attempting. AND these animals had veterinary oversight from day one.

And now you seem to think the OP would be injecting into the joint capsule? Did you read the first post? She is discussing a systemic application (IV/IM) as was told to her. It becomes obvious that whoever suggested this has no idea what they are doing.[/QUOTE]

And no beer-holding need be part of the OP’s experiment. I do think it’s odd that this isn’t a conversation just done with the horse’s vet. But whatevs. And wasn’t it recently that folks were asking you about Tildren rather than relying only on their local DVM’s opinion and knowledge? If people want to have a “barn aisle” conversation with other HOs on the internet as part of their research, whatevs again.

OP, your vet still has the most important opinion and veto power, right?

[Ghazzu]

Useless for the stated purpose, at best.
More likely than not, a sterling example of the secondary placebo effect.

I am routinely amazed that the variety of substances that owners are willing to mainline in order to achieve some magic result.

[likeaninja]

I thank everyone for their own opinions on this. I certainly had no intentions of drawing up a syringe and sticking my horse with it prior to consulting my vet. However, before I ignorantly walked up to my vet and asked about this I wanted to see if anyone other than the person who mentioned it to me had any experience with it. The group on Chronicle obviously holds a lot of knowledge across the board and I wanted to take advantage of that after I was unsure of the results I found on Google. Of course my vet would have the ultimate veto power even if I had received positive responses. While I trust my vet completely, I also like to make sure I do my part as a consumer and look things up to the best of my ability. Reaching out here seemed like the obvious thing to do.

[Calvincrowe]

Fair enough, Likeaninja. However, your first post read like a “hey, if I give this drug, will my horse magically be better?” and too many “cheating thru drugs” threads here have really made folks quick to point out how wrong that can be. There is a lot of good, collective wisdom here, and sometimes some bad;)

Follow your vet’s advice. Sounds like this drug has no use in your situation. Good luck with your horse’s issues.

[AKB]

I think our old guy’s feet were blocked with Serapin when his navicular was really bothering him. It kept him a little more comfortable while we were waiting for the other meds to help.

[Xctrygirl]

OP while I agree with the broad idea behind your original post, the simple fact is that you should only be walking up to your vet and asking their opinion on a drug for your specific horse. They’re the doctor of record for your animal, and you compensate them for this skill.

Long before the internet people did exactly what you didn’t want to do, they blindly asked their dr about a drug that someone mentioned to them. It wasn’t frowned upon then and wouldn’t be now either. You are not a vet. As such vets are used to people asking them about things that they don’t know about. And if you ask vets now they will tell you that Google and bulletin boards have made their lives harder because now their clients walk up feeling semi-knowledgeable thanks to “Dr. Google” and they have a harder time explaining why something appropriate would or would not work because they get push back like “But WebMd says…” or “But Online they said it was used at a show and the USEF never bothered them…”

Save yourself some hassles, go straight to the source. Let their investment in vet school and such benefit you. That way you know 100% all the ideas, uses, pros and cons of any possible solution. And your vet will be able to put the welfare of you and your horse first.

~Emily

[AstonMDB9]

And here I feel guilty about administering Depo on a clients horse with very high testosterone levels (confirmed by several panels done) who does NOT even show so that he won’t start calling for mares while ammy owner rides him. Note he could be fixed with training etc but he is a 19 yr old ex show hunter who lopes around 2’6 on a good day and is just fine with this arrangement.

At least the OP is asking questions and hopefully making an informed decision rather than turning a blind eye and thinking trainer knows best in all instances.

[Horse_Maid]

Other uncommon uses for Sarapin
Twenty years I learned about pitcher plant. Sarapin and P Block (the veterinary label ) are primarily used for neuritis and neuralgia disorders in people and joint injections for horses.

I’ve used Sarapin for a variety of horse and dog conditions after learning about Iontophoresis from a veterinarian. Iontophoresis is a method for using low level current to deliver some medications topically. Some condtions I’ve used Sarapin for are, horse with wind puffs (annular ligament syndrome), suspensory injury, ring bone, kissing spine and a dog with an enlarged hock joint.

I phorese the Sarapin after I’ve done some microcurrent therapy treatments. With the horse with wind puffs corrections in hoof balancing were done then followed by microcurrent therapy to reduce the thickened ankles and the iontophoresis with the Sarapin for additional pain relief. Sarapin also seems to help expedite the breakdown of scar tissue. In the ring bone horse a series of phoresing Sarapin reduced the calcification and the horse became sound. There is more to these protocols than shared here but making the point that pitcher plant is a valuable part of my rehab arsenal

[mroades]

random first zombie post!!! However, it did make me read the thread, and I had a boss right around this time frame that had me give this substance IV. I was like??? As far as I could tell it did nothing and no, I didn’t stay there long