[QUOTE=Beverley;7977794]
‘Dressage’ is simply the French word for ‘training,’ the verb is ‘dresser,’ ‘to train.’ [/QUOTE]
This is a pretty common, but simplistic view. You don’t think that race horse training, WP training, and dressage training are the same, do you?
[QUOTE=SillyHorse;7985009]
This is a pretty common, but simplistic view. You don’t think that race horse training, WP training, and dressage training are the same, do you?[/QUOTE]
Yup. The fundamentals are the same for all three, and I have started/worked with horses that have done those three things and much more. They all have to go to kindergarten even if they have different majors in college.
Another simplistic response. Ultimately, what we call dressage is more than generic “training,” and very different from the training that horses get in other disciplines.
You are entitled to your opinion, even if you don’t get the context of the discussion.
Silly Horse: Beverly’s replies that you consider “simplistic” offer a lot of meaning in a few words. “Profound, based on lots of experience,” is probably closer to the truth.
Since we’re in the Western forum here, I suggest you do some reading in the modern worlds of cutting/ranch performance horses. I have friends in these worlds and many of their finished horses could clean up at a USDF show up through third or fourth level at least.
I am not saying this to be argumentative but rather to show that much of the same gymnasticizing and suppling and balance that is demonstrated in dressage is TRAINING for these performance disciplines as well.
On another note, take a look at the presentation that Anne Kursinski gave at the 2014 George Morris horsemastership program, on an up-and-coming jumper. She showed half-pass, pirouettes and more. Again, this was TRAINING for her chosen discipline.
Look around, you’ll find more commonality among true horsemen’s training than you apparently expect.
This is a clear illustration that your horse is not responsive to ANY of your aids – not your leg aids nor your hands nor your seat. So, not to be offensive, but this horse is not even capable of doing an Intro “dressage” test (the very lowest and not actually considered competitive dressage).
I think people who just say “dressage means ‘training’” don’t really know what the sport or system of training called “Dressage” encompasses. BTW, the French word “dresser”, also means “to drill” and wasn’t used in reference to the sport of dressage till 1936. Prior to that, the phrase just meant the basic training ALL riding horses should have. ALL RIDING HORSES.
There is actually another phrase in French that encompasses the more advanced training that you might see in a dressage ring.
The making of a bridle horse (Western) encompasses the same goals as basic competitive or classical dressage: response to light aids of (in order of importance): seat, leg, hand, basic lateral work (side pass, leg yield), basic turning (turn on FH & TOHQ), going forward with freedom & backing (a ‘dressage’ back IS different than a Western reiner back). Plus ALL riding horses should maintain a contact with the bit, although of course in dressage a horse is asked to really move forward to the contact.
Oh yeah…and all should be able to do a fairly correct circle in balance.
ALL riding horses should be able to do these simple moves and be W/T/C.
So OP, I’m very sorry, but you are not schooling dressage or anything else effectively. He is NOT fully trained…at least not when you are on board.
And I would never try to advise you, because 1) this is a bulletin board, and 2) with all the things you mentioned you have far more than just 1 or 2 issues.
So you need to work with a qualified trainer.
The point is however, you can “school” all these movements using western tack and a simple snaffle. ALL accomplished trainers (even Western) school green horses using 2 hands, a fair amount of contact, and the same basic exercises to teach them the same basic moves.
If you look at videos of (Western) experts like Buck Brannaman, Lester Buckley, Bob Villa (is that the name of the reining guy? Or is that the house guy…I always switch them up :yes:)…I’ve watched videos & read articles by these guys and more and their basic methods are very similar…NOT identical, but I’ve had my homebreds (WBs bred for dressage) started u/s by “cowboy trainers” and as long as the “cowboy” understands the concept of upper level dressage and to NOT teach the horse to back off the bit, the horse makes the transition just fine. Of course, this transition usually happens after only 30-90 days training by the “cowboy”, because then it’s time to work on things that a working Western horse will not need to do and a dressage horse WILL have to do.
Example:
Here is a video of a coming 4 yr old filly. She has less than 90 days u/s in this video and 3 wks of that was basically just getting started: so plow reining, learning what the leg means, what “whoa” means, etc. Baby basic stuff that all horses from racehorses to saddle seat to reiners to GP jumpers learn.
Now the rider is starting to work on exercises that will be required of a competitive dressage horse. Note how the rider is already working on variations within gaits on a 20 M. circle (something Western does not have), extensions (not seen in Western), plus go freely into contact (something not seen in Western), plus slowing the tempo within the trot gait (which will someday lead to piaffe & passage, again…something not in Western).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4tUnhzNcHU
Please note the rider doesn’t not have a problem keeping this VERY green horse on the rail, maintaining the correct gait or responding to the aids.
Believe me guys…there IS a big difference, but ultimately ALL well-trained riding horses should be schooled in the basics.
And OP…I’m really NOT trying to hurt your feelings, but a horse that responds the way you describe is either NOT really trained or you are overhorsed and he simply has zero respect for you or you don’t really know how to give aids or execute a particular exercise clearly enough for the horse to understand them and respond correctly.
Find a trainer. Doesn’t matter if its’ western or “dressage”…sounds like your horse would benefit from either. Otherwise you are wasting your time and just instilling more confusion & disobedience in your horse.
ezduzit my chiro always advises to give the horse a day or two off after an adjustment. Perhaps your guy didn’t feel “quite right” and therefore found it difficult to co-operate.
[QUOTE=SillyHorse;7985009]
This is a pretty common, but simplistic view. You don’t think that race horse training, WP training, and dressage training are the same, do you?[/QUOTE]
The answer should be yes, good training. I want to control the horses body.
Yep, it was offensive, even if you didn’t mean it to be.
Yes, I was offended by Kyzteke. I have to remember that not all people have the diplomacy gene.
I appreciate the helpful suggestions made by other posters.
[QUOTE=ezduzit;7985773]
Yes, I was offended by Kyzteke. I have to remember that not all people have the diplomacy gene.
I appreciate the helpful suggestions made by other posters.[/QUOTE]
I thought Kytzeke was quite straightforward (and correct) in his/her assessment. You may not like the message, but there’s no point in blaming the messenger.
We were having a perfectly nice conversation about riding, women helping women, common experiences, solutions and the BOOM. Really, if you have to explain that you’re not TRYING to hurt feelings and then go on to say that I am wasting my time and ruining my horse, then maybe you shouldn’t be saying it. Just maybe this conversation is not for you and you should butt out.
I’m 68 years old…I don’t expect to set the world on fire. Just having a nice conversation.
[QUOTE=SillyHorse;7985859]
I thought Kytzeke was quite straightforward (and correct) in his/her assessment. You may not like the message, but there’s no point in blaming the messenger.[/QUOTE]
Regardless of Kytzeke’s intent to insult or not, he/she gives good advice, which is that you need to be working with a trainer. IIRC, the problems that you are having are not popping up out of the blue - you’ve been struggling with the same issues for a long time now. If you are intent on improving your horsemanship and riding, you should be working with a trainer - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result hasn’t seemed to have done the trick.
[QUOTE=ezduzit;7985899]
We were having a perfectly nice conversation about riding, women helping women, common experiences, solutions and the BOOM. Really, if you have to explain that you’re not TRYING to hurt feelings and then go on to say that I am wasting my time and ruining my horse, then maybe you shouldn’t be saying it. Just maybe this conversation is not for you and you should butt out.
I’m 68 years old…I don’t expect to set the world on fire. Just having a nice conversation.[/QUOTE]
Good luck to you.
[QUOTE=ezduzit;7985773]
Yes, I was offended by Kyzteke. I have to remember that not all people have the diplomacy gene.
I appreciate the helpful suggestions made by other posters.[/QUOTE]
Well, if you were trying to ski and kept falling down and I told you it was because you weren’t doing it right, would you be offended?
Some horses aren’t particularly sensitive and will let a rider fumble all around; those horses, in the parlance “can take a joke.”
Your Morgan obviously can’t. He needs the aids delivered correctly at the right place & time. I would venture to guess that if you put a more experienced rider on him these things wouldn’t happen (if they do he isn’t really “trained”)…so I would think you would WANT to improve.
And watching your daughter ride won’t help you – take some lessons yourself.
Again, I can’t help it if you offended by the truth…that part about people has always confused me.
Also to clarify – if you are “schooling” a horse and he’s not doing anything you want, that isn’t really “schooling”…nobody is learning anything.
PS I’m almost 63, so I’m not sure what age has to do with all of it.
Ezduzit, I think what people are really trying to say is Horsie has to have reliable steering to be a safe ride. So maybe go back to more basics…Horsie needs to go where you say and put his feet where you say to put them NOW.
Every horse will question the handler’s requests at some point. It is the quick & early identification of those questions that will nip the steering problem in the bud. That is where working through this on the ground 1st might be an option or working through it with a trainer.
My mare is a slow-burn, thoughtful, pushy, alpha. She is an energy conserver, no temper tantrums, no over reactions from this Mare. If she can get away with it, she will just bulge a shoulder and continue on her way. In my book that is her running away, albeit very slowly;). But it doesnt mean I change my answer to her question just because she doesnt jump around like a golden retriever trying to get out of work, LOL.
So when I miss a question from her, or I am lazy and choose to ignore it, she will escalate that question. That is a big problemo for me because I like steering!
I have found with Miss Alpha Mare that my training starts from the moment I go to the field to get her: face me, come to me, drop your head, put your own nose in the halter, ground tie. If she is able to focus on my directions on the ground then she will be able to focus on my directions from in the saddle. When I let my expectations slide on the ground work I can predict that it will be “One of Those Rides” and frankly I am getting to old for “One of Those Rides”
