How many of you school your western horses along the lines of classical dressage?
I have no plans to compete in western dressage and my horse isn’t built to go beyond 1st. level in “regular” dressage. I find the schooling to be so helpful to me in my equitation…it forces me to be aware of my body and to ride correctly. I also find that my horse is getting stronger and able to carry himself much more softly.
We are currently working on leg yields and shoulder in.
He’s a Morgan Horse
I grew up riding western, and sold our horses before our children were born. We went back into horses over 20 years ago, my girls doing USPC and 4h. I started riding dressage then.
I have never really shown dressage, and don’t want to. Dressage has been great for all my horses. Enough to make nice rounded horses in any discipline.
I do ride my current mare dressage, have dressage tack to fit but prefer western at this time in my life. Mostly trail ride and dabble on cattle. I did do a Cowboy dressage clinic and loved it. My mare is built more for western than English dressage, but her classic training was perfect for playing at Cowboy dressage. I know the western dressage is different yet, but honestly we have a good base for anything we want to do. Except, for Western pleasure, she is too big a mover for that.
I’ve ridden everything from race horses to hunters to jumpers and now western. I always ride everything along the lines of classical dressage, as do most of the good riders and trainers I know, regardless of the discipline. Everyone starts at the same point - you want the horse to be calm, confident, balanced, softly accepting the bit, moving forward off the leg, flexible and supple. The tack and outfit does not matter.
I will comment that the common sense, humane western riders and trainers are by far much much better at starting colts than anyone else, although during the past few decades their natural horsemanship techniques have been seeping into the other disciplines. I first encountered these methods working with young tb sale horses in Ocala over 25 years ago, and have never gone back to any other method.
‘Dressage’ is simply the French word for ‘training,’ the verb is ‘dresser,’ ‘to train.’ Every horse I’ve had, some started from scratch, others retrained, the fundamentals are to me the same regardless of the saddle. Actually I’ve always started mine in a western saddle, it’s easier on their backs and seems to provide them more security, and they’ll all go in either saddle for whatever the job is.
Granted, when I first competed in reining and such, before I’d done more than a few basic English riding lessons as a kid, some of the refinements that western trainers have learned to apply over the years weren’t being taught. ‘Western’ has the same European origins as ‘English,’ tack and techniques having simply been refined to perform the tasks defined as necessary. Hard to dally a rope around a horn when you have no horn. But some ‘cowboys’ came up with other means than roping, google ‘photos of Italian cowboys’ for example.
I think of ‘classical dressage’ as good, ‘competitive dressage,’ not so much. Much like western competitive events can change the equation when what ‘wins’ is so specialized as to have lost its connection to real world use of horses.
[QUOTE=Beverley;7977794]
’ But some ‘cowboys’ came up with other means than roping, google ‘photos of Italian cowboys’ for example.
/QUOTE]
I did what you recommended and LOOK what I got!!!
Woo-hoo!!!
I like to think of just basic good training. Yes, I took enough High school French (5 years ) to know dressage means training. However, many people consider the term ‘dressage’ exclusive to a training methodology that gets horse soft in his entire body
Basic good training, Western, does not need the term dressage applied to it, as any good western training program works towards the same goal, using many of the same techniques, with some modifications that are geared towards a particular western expectations, such as eventual total self carriage
The term ‘Warmblood’ has become associated with a sport horse type, but in reality, if classified by blood, most of our riding horses are classified as warmbloods, with TBs and Arabians as hot bloods, and drafts as cold
NH trainers think they invented communicating /training horses, by using their innate herd/prey species instinct, when in reality, good training programs have always used those basic, just never applied a label
Thus , good western training programs have evolved, able to stand on their own, without the term 'dressage applied, nor a strict dressage training program applied, although , of course, fundamentals that teach complete body control are universal, and go back to that tradition in many aspects
Yes, I teach half pass, side pass, shoulder control, hip control, hind end engagement, guide, etc, but I don’t call it dressage, I just call it good training.
I ride dressage, so I may be biased but I think its a great thing to do. Weather you want to trail ride or what ever else, training a horse to be sensitive and obedient is never a bad idea (:
Also really stupid Question but what is a side pass, is it similar to a leg yield?
Not a stupid question at all, yes, a side pass is a ‘bigger’ leg yield, the horse simply moves sideways, crossing over front and rear, a very handy feature to have on any horse. You can move over to let someone pass on a narrow trail or move closer to the mail box to pick up your mail or move closer to the arena fence post to grab your water bottle or other beverage for a sip, and so on. In my experience, any horse in any discipline with decent lateral knowledge can pick it up easily.
I too have a western pleasure Morgan. I am actually taking her dressage this year to hopefully help our western. I thought about the western dressage, but she has a fairly long stride so we are keeping with regular dressage. I think it will be a tremendous help.
You make some really good points, KIloBright.
What you said about dressage and horses being soft throughout their bodies really got my attention, because a lot of times what I see in competitive dressage is a horse that is anything but soft. Overbent, tailwringing, I would say more clenched than soft. The higher the level, sometimes the less soft the horse.
Then I see some western horses looking soft and free-moving on a loose rein, and I wonder what the western term would be for losgelassenheit!
My Morgan is built to be a western horse: short coupled and naturally “collected”.
When I speak of “classical” dressage it’s to separate training from other forms of “point and shoot” training. Which isn’t really training but the people doing it think it is.
I would add one more clarification to the side pass. It’s my understanding that it is a completely sideways movement…no forward movement at all. We’ve not there yet.
[QUOTE=ezduzit;7982469]
I would add one more clarification to the side pass. It’s my understanding that it is a completely sideways movement…no forward movement at all. We’ve not there yet.[/QUOTE]
I think you can get there pretty easily - you sound plenty competent. I teach side pass very early on - as Beverly said, it’s handy and not difficult to learn.
After yesterday’s ride, I am doubting my competence to do ANYTHING well while in the saddle. I have had him 7 years…lots of physical ailments/recoveries (mine) and slow do diagnose hock problems have slowed my progress. Hours of just being a passenger has taken a toll on his respect for me.
Yesterday was a constant “argument” over which way to go…I wanted to be on the rail; he wanted to go into the middle (and presumably quit). I wanted his nice jog…he wanted to go in fits and spurts. I wanted a soft lope…he wanted to get all jiggy as soon as I thought about loping. These “arguments” are nothing new and in the past he always won. I’d be late to say, “no, get on the rail” when we were already half way to x.
I keep making excuses. He had his chiro yesterday so maybe he didn’t feel good…yada yada yada. I always make excuses for him because I don’t know how to push, when to push or how hard to push. I rode like I meant it which accounts for all the confrontations. For instance, if he wanted to veer off = more leg and rein support. I’m riding in a snaffle and running martingale; direct rein.
He’s wonderful for everyone else…I have unwittingly created a spoiled brat and he knows he can do with me. Any suggestions? Just keeping asking the question and not taking “no” for an answer? Just keeping riding toward my goal even if that goal is jogging from A to E to B to C and not wiggling all over the place? He’s 13 and was fully trained. Not a remedial horse.
btw…I now dismount on the rail when the riding is over. I don’t go anywhere near the middle when it’s time to quit.
You can do it, if he has your number, you just have to change your number. You ‘ask’ once and then that ‘ask’ becomes pretty firmly rhetorical. The ‘new you’ needs to have the aura that says ‘love ya, but no more mr. nice guy.’
I think we all at some point or another rationalize with excuses for the horse and we don’t want to push the ‘fragile’ creature. I try to always have the approach that a little pain or a little minor horse eating rock is an explanation, but it is not an excuse for disobedience.
Remember to make the right thing easy and the wrong thing = more work. If he is drifting off the rail, yes, FIRMLY stay on that rail and extra laps at the relevant gait til he quits drifting. If you don’t have the lope you want, stay in that lope until you get it, or at least some improvement, then catch breath and do it again. When you get the lope you want on the first try, make it brief, and reward. If a horse does what I want right the first time, I reward with less work. They do figure that out, but you have to be consistent, consistent, consistent in your approach.
If the middle of the ring = work is over, well, you know, it’s also a lovely spot to practice circles, serpentines, all sorts of things. Spend 10-15 minutes at a time ‘just’ working in the middle, then go back to the rail, let him understand that wherever ‘you’ choose to go in the arena is a potential work spot and rest spots may occur randomly anywhere.
And mix up your routine, don’t do the same thing every ride. When he wants to go to the middle, circle. My little mare is so quick and wanted to cut in and what fixed that was loping lots of circles. I did a lot of trot circles but she could cut in if I wasn’t careful, so did leg yields in and out on the quarter line. Loping various size circles in random parts of the arena really helped fix a lot of little issues. Good luck.
I will frequently revert to doing consistent ground work when I get into a tough place with a horse. In fact, if I’m having a real hard time under saddle, I’ll hop off and fix the problem on the ground, then hop back on and try to ask the question in another way. Even horses that are fully trained will still sometimes test you and see if they can take over the controls. My bestest horse ever that I completely adore gets this way when I don’t ride much (like now!).
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7978372]
Yes, I teach half pass, side pass, shoulder control, hip control, hind end engagement, guide, etc, but I don’t call it dressage, I just call it good training.[/QUOTE]
Complete DITTO.
Just good ol’ training!
First and foremost: Are you taking lessons?
I’ve been riding for over 25 years and I still go hang out with a reining trainer every so often, and recently started taking hunter/jumper lessons. And when there’s something I want to learn to do better, I go seek help for it.
It is invaluable to have a second pair of eyes watching what you are doing. For example: One reining trainer I worked with a few times noticed that I release my cue for the right lead a split second too soon, whereas I don’t do that on the left. Small little inconsistencies like that can create little problems when you are working on certain things. Had no idea I was doing that.
Having a trainer work with you every now and then can help you with you TIMING, which sounds like it what you struggle with. When to keep asking? When to ask harder? When to release?
I’m often guilty of being “too nice” to my horses too. Both my current reining trainer and my English trainer tell me that. 
When you “firm up” in the correct way, it’s amazing the results you get from your horse.
So long story short, that’s my suggestion for you: Find a trainer nearby that you can go work with every once in a while. I bet it will really help your confidence. (And confidence is key!)
I ride one way regardless of the saddle I am sitting in. I’m a dressage rider, and my western pony is trained in a dressage fashion. It’s an amazing tool (as we know) for teaching forward and engagement. Took said pony to a barrel race for fun, never having done it, and won. She knew how to go forward, turn and move off my legs.
Taking lessons…yes! And observing my adult daughter’s lesson. She’s going to show 1st level and is schooling some 2nd. Amazing what I pick up at her lessons…I feel I should pay for half. lol
And I ride with daughter’s eyes on the ground at every ride. She keeps an eye on me and is available when I have questions. We usually ride separately, one right after the other.
I do a lot of middle of the ring movements but I think not enough; in the way of doing 2 circles instead of one. I do serpentines and work on straight along the long diag. We’re much better at going straight without the wiggles. I’m also working on making him maintain an even tempo when we’re off the rail…he likes to downward transition. He might be trying to con me or he may be off balance. I think it’s more con than anything…hard to be off balance with a slow jog. 
Thank you for all the advice…I’m taking notes. Riding tomorrow and my goal will be to notice the FIRST step of disobedience and not let it get farther than that. I need to raise my awareness of what he’s doing and what it’s leading up to.
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