Schutzhund/IPO and Agility - Can they coexist? - UPDATE Post #27!

[Cascades]

So I have a dog training question, and as I have yet to find a forum more educated than COTH, I thought I’d ask here.

Is there any reason that my dog (currently 4 month old Belgian Malinois) cannot do both Schutzhund and agility as he gets older?

I’m not necessarily interested in competing to a super high level in either - more interested in having some fun with my dog while providing him with the exercise and stimulation that he needs to be happy and not eat my house.

Currently, he’s just a baby. Going to puppy classes, learning the basics.

Next up will be obedience classes, CGC, and possibly CGCA.

Once we move (soon! yay!), I’ll be visiting with the local Schutzhund clubs about getting him started there, as well.

Obviously I will ask their opinion on the matter, as well as any potential agility trainer, but I thought I’d see if it was even a possibility?

Or is it asking too much of one dog?

TIA!

[IdahoRider]

It depends. I know of a few IPO folks who compete at a club level who also do agility and dock diving. However, they had different experiences when looking for classes/instructors that were willing to cross disciplines.

Two of these people were very well known in the dog community and didn’t have any problem finding training. I think their own names gave them the access. The other person was not a “known entity” in the community and had a very hard time finding an agility instructor that would work with a dog that was also doing bite work.

I think a lot will depend on your dog and how open your local instructors and IPO clubs are. It might be harder to find training for both concurrently.
Sheilah

[Bicoastal]

[QUOTE=Cascades;8733491]
Obviously I will ask their opinion on the matter, as well as any potential agility trainer, but I thought I’d see if it was even a possibility?

Or is it asking too much of one dog?TIA![/QUOTE]

I know dogs who do both. The training cultures are very different, so you may get a lot of resistance from the trainers.

I’d rather ask, “Is it asking too much of one owner?” :o Both are time-consuming sports, I think moreso with IPO’s club member type of structure that requires volunteer hours at remote locations. I struggle to train and compete in two sports and I am lucky enough to have multiple training facilities and competition venues within a 2-hr drive. For me, one the sports always suffers to the point where I’m not pursuing competing in both with my up-and-coming dog.

[Cascades]

Thanks for the input!

I figured finding an agility trainer willing to work with an IPO dog might be a challenge…that’s something I’ll just have to look into, I guess.

The IPO club that I’m most interested in does mostly +R/clicker training, so not your stereotypical alpha rolling types. I had hoped that that might be more conducive to crossing over between sports.

I think the time demands will definitely be a consideration, Bicoastal. But I’m willing to give up most of my free time to keeping the dog entertained, so we’ll see…

Thanks again! And if anyone has any more input, please keep it coming!

[Marshfield]

One of my puppy owners does both IPO and Agility with her GSD. The corgi from me just does agility

[RHdobes563]

My cousin has a (probably) field-bred Lab. She had done Rally obedience, agility, regular obedience (title), carting (title), and Advanced Water Rescue (titles). Despite his now not-so-good hips, she is thinking of starting Nosework with him.

I’d say ‘yeah, you can do both.’

[bdj]

I know a couple of folks who did the first level of Schutzhund and also did obedience/rally with their dogs. One had purpose bred GSDs, one had an Australian Shepherd.

That said, what works with an Aussie may be a completely different issue with a Mal (they can be a whole 'nother level of dog). I don’t see any Mals doing agility locally - off the top of my head, I can only think of one person who runs Mals - I think she does Schutzhund as well, and her dogs are pretty intense when it comes to agility.

So, I’m sure you can do both - but I guess the real question is - do you want (and have the time/resources) to do both? And (even more importantly) is your puppy suited (mentally and physically) to both?

[Cascades]

[QUOTE=RHdobes563;8733744]
My cousin has a (probably) field-bred Lab. She had done Rally obedience, agility, regular obedience (title), carting (title), and Advanced Water Rescue (titles). Despite his now not-so-good hips, she is thinking of starting Nosework with him.

I’d say ‘yeah, you can do both.’[/QUOTE]

I realize that lots of people do multiple dog sports with their dogs. My question was more specific to IPO and whether or not people regularly cross over into other dog sports with a dog that is used for bite work.

For example, I know that IPO dogs cannot also do SAR. I didn’t know if there was a “common practice” when it comes to agility.

[QUOTE=bdj;8733749]I know a couple of folks who did the first level of Schutzhund and also did obedience/rally with their dogs. One had purpose bred GSDs, one had an Australian Shepherd.

That said, what works with an Aussie may be a completely different issue with a Mal (they can be a whole 'nother level of dog). I don’t see any Mals doing agility locally - off the top of my head, I can only think of one person who runs Mals - I think she does Schutzhund as well, and her dogs are pretty intense when it comes to agility.

So, I’m sure you can do both - but I guess the real question is - do you want (and have the time/resources) to do both? And (even more importantly) is your puppy suited (mentally and physically) to both?[/QUOTE]

I’m pretending, for now, that time and resources aren’t going to be an issue. Time will tell, of course.

As far as suitability, that will be up to his trainers to evaluate. Both of his parents are titled IPO3, and he doesn’t have any physical abnormalities as of now that would preclude him from doing anything. That said, he only has “moderate” drive, so I don’t know if he’ll be drivey enough to title in Schutzhund.

We did intentionally get a puppy with only moderate drive. After discussions with his breeder, I knew that a super high drive puppy would not suit our lifestyle, so he matched us with one of the mellower pups of the litter.

All of this would be strictly for fun. Titling would be cool, but isn’t a necessary part of my life. I just want to have fun with my dog.

[Hannahsmom]

Agility trainers won’t ask about IPO unless you make a big deal of it. If you have your dog under control and you know how to direct the drive you will be fine. There are some extremely good Mals in International agility and I know several local folks with lovely examples of the breed very successful in agility. Agility people expect a Mal owner to have excellent understanding of their dogs as Mals need to work. Great dogs.

[Cascades]

[QUOTE=Hannahsmom;8736000]
Agility trainers won’t ask about IPO unless you make a big deal of it. If you have your dog under control and you know how to direct the drive you will be fine. There are some extremely good Mals in International agility and I know several local folks with lovely examples of the breed very successful in agility. Agility people expect a Mal owner to have excellent understanding of their dogs as Mals need to work. Great dogs.[/QUOTE]

Is it even necessary for me to mention that we are also doing IPO? What’s the protocol there?

I don’t want to make it a “big deal”, but part of me feels that if I have a dog being trained for bite work, I should disclose that to others working with the dog. Is that not correct?

I’m really not trying to be dramatic - just not wanting to commit any faux pas.

I appreciate the guidance.

[vacation1]

[QUOTE=Cascades;8736010]
Is it even necessary for me to mention that we are also doing IPO? What’s the protocol there? I don’t want to make it a “big deal”, but part of me feels that if I have a dog being trained for bite work, I should disclose that to others working with the dog. Is that not correct?
I’m really not trying to be dramatic - just not wanting to commit any faux pas.
I appreciate the guidance.[/QUOTE]

I think honesty is the best approach here. People should be told a dog is being trained for bite work when you first look into their class/facility/etc. Ethically, it allows them to know important information about the dog and their potential increased risk, and practically it lets them make better decisions about training and handling - I doubt many non-IPO trainers just assume a new student is in that sort of training, as it’s not too common.

[lucky_dog_farm]

I do French Ring with my Dutchies and I can enter them in anything. I do Nosework, agility, obedience, rally ect. If you are teaching your dog IPO then not only are you teaching your dog to bite but your also teaching your dog
when not to bite. If you have a good handle on your dog, there shouldn’t be a problem

[mommy_peanut]

@Cascades;8733695

The IPO club that I’m most interested in does mostly +R/clicker training, so not your stereotypical alpha rolling types. I had hoped that that might be more conducive to crossing over between sports.

Not sure what type of trainers you’ve run into, but any good IPO trainers & clubs use balanced training. There’s no “alpha rolling” crap going on.

To go back to your original question.
There’s no reason why you can’t do both with your dog. Unless it’s got a weak or nervy temperament(which then you shouldn’t be doing IPO).
It all comes down to obedience training in the end.

All my dogs do IPO as well as many other sports.
Due to them having rock solid temperaments & good training, having done bite work does not negatively affect them doing other sports.

You’ll probably find time, energy, & money to be the biggest issue with doing multiple sports, just as with horses

[Anne_FS]

Of course they can be done together.

People think IPO/Schutzhund is all about biting. It’s all about OBEDIENCE.

I have an IPO1 CDX. No problems. If your dog has a rock solid temperament, which it must have before you try either one of these sports, I don’t understand where the problem is.

I have another BH/CD/AD dog that I was also doing Agility with. Due to health issues I stopped training but she would’ve been an easy transition between sports. Actually, I stopped Agility because it was so beyond freaking boring. If I could afford private lessons I would’ve kept going, but group lessons were awful. You might find this with your Malinois. Smart, trained dog, so you tell it here, jump through this tire. Done. Stand on this wiggle board. Done. Do the teeter. Done. Go on the dog walk. Done. They just do it and then you stand there for the entire class while the instructor works with the other dogs who need continuous encouragement and instruction. It was a huge waste of time and money.

[Anne_FS]

[QUOTE=Cascades;8736010]
Is it even necessary for me to mention that we are also doing IPO? What’s the protocol there?

I don’t want to make it a “big deal”, but part of me feels that if I have a dog being trained for bite work, I should disclose that to others working with the dog. Is that not correct?

I’m really not trying to be dramatic - just not wanting to commit any faux pas.

I appreciate the guidance.[/QUOTE]

Some places forbid any dog who does bite work being any where near any other dog. I’m sure you can ask.

But again I have to say to you, if you are doing IPO, your dog is being trained in tracking, obedience, retrieving, and the intense obedience that bite work requires.

I’m sure every class/instructor asks “what are you doing with your dog?” Tell them IPO (or Schutzhund, since a lot of people haven’t realized the name change). They’ll tell you if that excludes you from the class or not. I agree with Hannahsmom about not making a big deal (or even a little deal :lol:) about it. If you go around telling everybody you’re “training in bitework” plenty of people are going to freak out.

[Anne_FS]

[QUOTE=Cascades;8733491]

Or is it asking too much of one dog?[/QUOTE]

Not at all. You’re doing it right by puppy classes, socializing, all the “regular” obedience stuff with your 4mo old baby. You can certainly start Tracking now, too. Concentrate on the stable temperament and the happy socialization and by the time pup is old enough and ready for the intense Schutzhund training you’ll have a mentally & physically ready dog who will probably already have several non-IPO obedience titles.

Obviously it depends on the strength of your dog’s mentality. I did have a friend who had a super Mali but with maturity came the crazy Mali drive that some lines have that frankly isn’t normal stuff.

[dkcbr]

The owner of one of my training places trains and competes in Schutzhund/IPO and traditional AKC obedience & rally simultaneously. Her dog is over-the-top high drive so he always wants more! more! more! work and can handle the demands. (He’s also got a stable temperament and his owner/handler is an amazing trainer.)

But what poses a very real problem in the scenario is the time and effort demanded to pursue all of the obedience, tracking, and protection work required to title in the Sch. type sports, plus the separate training and proofing for the AKC venue. Quite honestly, it’s a real challenge for her with a fulltime job in the mix.

She doesn’t do agility, but as a student of it myself I can see a bit of a problem with finding the time to train and practice all of those skills alongside all the skills for the Sch. (Okay, I’m exhausted thinking about it. :o ) Not to mention you will have to consider the fitness/conditioning requirements involved for the various aspects of Sch. and agility.

Maybe it’s just the people I know in my area that do it, but it seems that the sport requires a lot more time and dedication than any of the other dog sports and they take their sport very seriously (vs. embarking on it merely to keep a dog entertained). I don’t see any reason not to network with the Sch. folks, but don’t be surprised if they are not overly encouraging to you if you aren’t eager to jump in full-bore.

But it sounds like you are primed to do all you can to keep your dog happy, which is awesome!

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=Cascades;8736010]
Is it even necessary for me to mention that we are also doing IPO? What’s the protocol there?

I don’t want to make it a “big deal”, but part of me feels that if I have a dog being trained for bite work, I should disclose that to others working with the dog. Is that not correct?

I’m really not trying to be dramatic - just not wanting to commit any faux pas.

I appreciate the guidance.[/QUOTE]

My Sch III male did agility. I never mentioned it to anyone, I didn’t hide it. He was arguably the best trained dog there. His temperament was impeccable and no one would every have known he was the 'real deal" in bitework (working police dog at one time). Now I hid my schutzhund training collars (prong, electric) because 1. obviously you can’t use them 2. people are horrified at them. Whatever.

I’d go for it again in a heartbeat. I see dogs that do “just agility” with no control and potentially MUCH more dangerous than my dog ever was, as obedience is ingrained and such a big part in our training.

[Cascades]

Thanks for the input, everyone! I appreciate it!

For now, we’re going to stay focused on puppy class and basic obedience. I’d like to get his CGC and CGCA in the next year. We may also play around with some Rally, just for some exposure to those types of venues.

In the next couple of months we’ll be starting with our IPO club as well. To be honest, I don’t know if my dog will even have enough drive to advance to bite work, but I think it would be great for him to learn the obedience and tracking phases, if nothing else.

If I end up having enough time and my dog seems to still have drive and energy to burn, I’ll look into some agility as well.

Right now, with him so young, we have to take things slowly, obviously. I’m just a type A planner, so I like to have his future all mapped out like a typical helicopter parent.

[WindyIsles]

[QUOTE=Cascades;8733797]
I realize that lots of people do multiple dog sports with their dogs. My question was more specific to IPO and whether or not people regularly cross over into other dog sports with a dog that is used for bite work.

For example, I know that IPO dogs cannot also do SAR. I didn’t know if there was a “common practice” when it comes to agility.

I’m pretending, for now, that time and resources aren’t going to be an issue. Time will tell, of course.

As far as suitability, that will be up to his trainers to evaluate. Both of his parents are titled IPO3, and he doesn’t have any physical abnormalities as of now that would preclude him from doing anything. That said, he only has “moderate” drive, so I don’t know if he’ll be drivey enough to title in Schutzhund.

We did intentionally get a puppy with only moderate drive. After discussions with his breeder, I knew that a super high drive puppy would not suit our lifestyle, so he matched us with one of the mellower pups of the litter.

All of this would be strictly for fun. Titling would be cool, but isn’t a necessary part of my life. I just want to have fun with my dog.[/QUOTE]

It’s a common misconception that you NEED a high drive dog to do well in IPO.

(Personal pet peeve is people breeding off the chain drivey dogs/can’t settle/must be outdoor kenneled/pretty much unable to be around people and relax types) and whose high drive can often mask poor nerves and other issues - seems to be more of a problem with Malinois but it’s becoming an issue in German Shepherds sadly (the breed was never meant to be like that but that’s a soapbox for another day).

Iron von den Wolfen last years WUSV Champion with Debbie Zappia is a MEDIUM drive dog. What he is, is insanely trainable and obedient and that is worth more than a high drive type.

So you CAN have medium/moderate drives AND be successful in the sport

Having ‘enough’ drive is enough (I like drive building with dogs, but for some people it saps the fun out of IPO).

I do know of several people who do agility AND IPO with their dogs (more than just ‘club’ level too - couple National competitors) - will you be at Nationals in both sports? No. But it’s fun to do both and expand your skillsets as a trainer.

My breeder has a breeding bitch that does IPO and Flyball. One of her young females from a breeding is doing agility AND IPO (will be going for her IPO1 in a few weeks).

If I hadn’t discovered IPO and gotten hooked I would have done agility.

Unfortunately I discovered IPO and am OBSESSED.

Waiting on my next competition dog to be bred and the puppy fever is real.