Seabuckthorn for ulcers?

[spotmenow]

One of my boarders suspects her horse has ulcers…she is reluctant to call her vet, treated with 7 days of UlcerGuard but doesn’t want to pay for a whole month of treatment. She found out about this stuff called Seabuck Complete from an article on TheHorse.com

I find the company that makes this product a bit sketchy…and, the sea buckthorn berries have a ton of vitamin C-vitamin C level of 3600 ppm is about 10 times higher than that of oranges. Not sure how that is going to HELP ulcers, being how vitamin C is acidic…has anyone had any experience with this stuff?

[Equsrider]

I read an article about seabuckthorn berry extract for ulcers as well. I’ve put a call into a DVM who works with alternative medicines to see what she thinks.I’ll let you know what she says! I’ve treated my horse twice now with ulcerguard since November with maintenance of aloe vera juice and papya puree inbetween…She’s fabulous a few days into the ulcerguard treatment now at 1/4 day because she is actively showing alot, but I have to find a cheaper alternative that works as well.the aloe/papaya didn’t seem to do the trick!

[spotmenow]

[QUOTE=Equsrider;3911885]
I read an article about seabuckthorn berry extract for ulcers as well. [/QUOTE]

Thanks! You probably read the same article, because from what I can find, Dr. Andrews is the only U.S. vet that has written about it and he has been involved in multiple for-profit companies which suggests he could have a vested interest in backing this product.

[Equsrider]

Since it’s a new product to the US, I wouldn’t be surprised more US vets are unaware, but that doesn’t make it a bad product. It doesn’t make it a good one either!!that said, it is relatively inexpensive.A gallon can be bought from SeaBuck directly for $77./gallon. A gallon holds 42.6 doses of 3 ounces/dose which is the recommended dosage per day…it also contains quite a few Omega’s and Vitamins and minerals that should be extremely beneficial to any horse.Theoretically, I would assume then that I could cut out other supplements and feed just this product.And it is suppose to help them gain weight and if that were the case perhaps I could cut down on the amount of food mine gets which would be a HUGE PLUS!So it may actually make my overall costs less, if it works! In any event, I have not heard back yet from the vet, however, currently I am spending about $9/day for 1/4 tube of Ulcerguard, which is getting quite ridiculous! So I may just do my own study to see what works for my horse, as we know, what works for one doesn’t always work for another!I’ll keep you posted!

[deltawave]

Without a diagnosis, someone is willing to pay for something that may or not work, may or may not be safe, and may or may not be anything else.

Seems penny-wise and pound foolish to me. There are products available for about $6-7/day that are KNOWN to cure and prevent ulcers. Why on earth would you dink around with anything else? (rhetorical question, just my way of looking at it)

I have patients complaining all the time about the cost of their prescriptions (90% of which are now about $5/month) but they think nothing of spending $100/month on their various supplements and nutriceuticals.

[hollyhorse2000]

After quite some time on Ulcergard (down to 1/4 tube every other day), I’ve started my mare on SmartPak’s Smart Gut and have been very impressed.

[Equsrider]

deltawave…hmm…did I not say I had called a vet to ask their opinion? did I not say I did not know if it was a good product or not? the OP was the one who had no confirmed diagnosis of ulcers but was treating with Ulcerguard for a week regardless.I on the other hand have a diagnosis, and have treated per vet recommendations of a tube a day for 30 days back in late October…after that treatment I tried the papaya puree and aloe vera juice regime, which many here on COTH, think work.But it did not work for my horse!She again stopped eating her grain, and became very ulcer symptomatic once again.I began her on Ulcerguard once again at 1/4 per day this time, and that seems to be helping.I have tried other ulcer meds in the past, but this is clearly what works “for Her”.If a new product comes along, and from what I can tell SeaBuck Thorn Berry has been around medicininally for centuries, that helps, at a cheaper cost, than,YES I would be willing to try it, but not without a vets recommendation… that at least it won’t HURT her…and I don’t buy supplements, willy nilly,I believe in a good quality hay and grain program with lots and lots of turnout on good pasture!

[deltawave]

Wasn’t referring to you, equs, but the person mentioned in the original post. The boarder who suspects ulcers but won’t call the vet.

[Altamont_Sport_Horse]

Maybe just give your horse an apple.

I read about it a bit, with a skeptical eye of course. If it has been used for many years I’m not surprised as it should have some vitamin and nutrient value. I don’t believe they were necessarily using it for ulcers way back when…if their horses had ulcers or were recognized as having such.

The website seems to use some very vague language leading a person to make assumptions that it will treat certain conditions effectively. If it has been researched why are there no peer-reviewed articles showing it’s effectiveness for any conditions, including ulcers? They list only a few references but they are not peer-reviewed articles and not in the U.S. Seems like if SeaBuckthorn was effective at treating any particular health condition they would be happy to provide references to such on their website.

I’ve got no issue with using “natural” remedies provided they work just as effectively and are safe. Is this product safe? I don’t know. But if it has such a high concentration of vitamin C I have to wonder if this would actually exacerbate ulcers in the stomach. Or what else could be in there that could harm the horse?

On the Horse.com article Dr. Andrews states “[T]here is no statistical difference in using this product.”

Quercetin is one of the things touted as an ingredient in SeaBuck. I looked it up on Wiki and found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quercetin There is supposedly no science to back this up as a cancer prevention flavone. In fact some researchers advise not supplementing with quercetin until they are sure that it does not CAUSE cancer because “In laboratory studies of cells (in vitro), quercetin produces changes that are also produced by compounds that cause cancer (carcinogens),”

Seabuckthorn berry has 62mg/kg of quercetin. Apples have 440mg/kg of quercetin. :lol: If you want to give your horse quercetin maybe you should just give him a bite of an apple every day.

Another interesting point on the same Wiki page. “Quercetin is also a potent inhibitor of CYP3A4[22] and CYP2C9[23], which are enzymes that break down most drugs in the body. As such, quercetin would be expected to increase serum levels, and therefore effects, of drugs metabolized by this enzyme.” So you might want to consult with a vet before giving bute, banamine, other medications, if your horse is using SeaBuck.

I wouldn’t have a problem using this product if it was proven to be safe and effective. At this time I wouldn’t want to spend $77 on a gallon of something that may or may not do something good…or bad, for my horse.

[spotmenow]

[QUOTE=Altamont Sport Horses;3913742]
I read about it a bit, with a skeptical eye of course. If it has been used for many years I’m not surprised as it should have some vitamin and nutrient value.[/QUOTE]

EXACTLY. If it has been used for years and was really the “miracle compound” that the site claims, one would think it would have already made it to the US and been researched.

It probably wouldn’t be harmful to the average horse; neither is supplementing with Vitamin C. However, giving (very acidic) Vitamin C to a horse suffering from ulcers??? Just wondered if anyone had any experience with this Seabuck stuff…guess not. Makes me even more suspicious.

[Equsrider]

info on Dr. Andrews
http://www.equinecareproducts.com/ulcer.php
sounds as if he is THE specialist in the US on EGUS.

[karenstandefer]

Here’s a pretty good bit of information about Sea Buckthorn:

http://www.itmonline.org/arts/seabuckthorn.htm

Karen
S. Oregon

[deltawave]

He has 14 published articles, 1st or 2nd author, on Medline. Not bad, but I’d wonder what his relationship is with Merial.

[Altamont_Sport_Horse]

[QUOTE=deltawave;3917872]
He has 14 published articles, 1st or 2nd author, on Medline. Not bad, but I’d wonder what his relationship is with Merial. :)[/QUOTE]

According to the bio on this site selling products to race horse owners/riders http://www.equinecareproducts.com/gastric-ulcer-.aspx Dr. Andrews did the clinical research to determine that omeprazole was effective in 1998. It is highly possible he tested the GastroGard product for Merial in a clinical trial. I’ve not done a Medline search.

I don’t think anyone is discounting Dr. Andrews credentials but where are the peer reviewed articles recounting rigorous research trials showing that Seabuckthorn is safe and effective for horses when it comes to treating ulcers? Some guy saying that Dr. Andrews says or thinks something is just heresay and doesn’t hold up. Dr. Andrews is on SeaBuck’s Advisory Board and…well…that doesn’t really mean much. Many advisory board members are nothing more than figureheads carefully chosen to lend credence to a group or to give a little professional/technical advice so that nothing inappropriate is said that could lead to legal troubles. The fact that he is on the Advisory Board does not mean that Dr. Andrews is actively involved in testing this product in a scientifically sound experimental design clinical study.

According to the info in the link provided by karenstandafer, the expressed juice of the Seabuckthorn berry has a pH of 2.7-3.3. That’s pretty acidic. I can’t help but wonder how adding more acid to the stomach of a horse with ulcers will make the ulcers heal. I’m not saying it doesn’t, it just doesn’t make sense to me. This is contrary to all current approaches (for humans and horses) of buffering acid in the stomach and reducing acid production.

[deltawave]

I’m totally with you, ASH.

As to adding an acidic liquid to the stomach to heal ulcers, well, that makes me go :rolleyes:, too. But the Apple Cider Vinegar cult will swear six ways from Sunday that it works. For a human, it’s easy to cheerfully say “go for it” if they feel better. Hard to argue with feeling better. But for a horse? I think I would go nuts as a vet, not being able to talk to my patients–or, more precisely, not being able to have them talk to ME.

[Altamont_Sport_Horse]

Agreed. At least when tried out on humans we KNOW if we are feeling better and can communicate it. With horses being unable to tell us and often stoic about pain until it is too severe we do not have that luxury. Of course this is not saying that the ulcer healing mechanism for horses is the same as humans anyway.

I don’t understand how apple cider vinegar could possibly help ulcers. When humans have ulcers the first behavioral recommendation from a physician is to avoid all acids including citrus, tomatos, sodas, etc.

At the most benign perhaps the horse gets some nutrient and antioxidant benefit without causing additional “injury” or pain. Until it is scientifically proven I am inclined to put my money towards other treatments that are proven to be effective. Better to spend more money and take care of the problem than to throw less money down the drain with no relief (or perhaps exacerbation) for the horse. Of course I am of the mindset that it is better to do things the right way first even if it is more expensive because that saves doubling your effort and money wasted. Whether this is in my personal life, career, around the farm or caring for a horse with special needs. Having to “do something over” often cost you more money and valuable time than if you did it right the first time. That has been my experience anyway.

[deltawave]

Yes indeed. I think there is just a different mindset about buying DRUGS. That’s problematic for a lot of people, partially because you have to cough up a certain amount, you can’t really shop around, and you can’t make many choices as to what kind yourself. But those same individuals will plunk down $20, $30, $50, $100 on the latest “supplement” without blinking, because they think they are choosing from among many options and getting “just the right one this time”. Which has a lot more to do with effective advertising than effective products, IMO. :sigh:

Then there’s the whole “drugs are dangerous chemicals” angle, which I simply cannot understand in the context of choosing alternatives, which are also chemicals, may or may not be just as dangerous, and at a minimum are VASTLY less well studied and understood in general. Boggles the mind.

Give me something proven safe and effective (I am very happy to dice through the pros and cons, since I realize NOTHING in science or medicine is 100% on either score) every time. I dislike guessing or winging it.

[Equsrider]

wow, you guys are a tough crowd!

Here’s the 10/12/2007 University of Tennessee Press Release:

Seabuck™ Effective in Preventing Increased Ulcer Severity

"MIDVALE October 12, 2007: Clinical studies conducted at the University of Tennessee showed that Seabuck Complete™ added to your horse’s diet can aid in preventing gastric ulcers from increased severity during times of stress and should be considered as part of a daily ulcer preventative program.

In a blinded 2-period crossover study performed at the University’s College of Veterinary Medicine by Dr. Frank M. Andrews, 3 ounces of Seabuck Complete™, mixed in grain and fed twice daily to horses, was shown to prevent gastric ulcers from increased severity in 88% of the horses during stall confinement and intermittent feeding, when compared to control horses.

Seabuck Complete™ was effective in preventing ulcers from increased severity while maintaining natural stomach PH levels at below 4.0. Dr. Andrews is excited to see a product that prevents this condition.

In further analysis of Seabuck Complete™ acting as a preventative source it was found that one of the horses on Seabuck™ did not develop ulcers after intermittent feeding. According to Dr. Andrews, "I’ve never seen a horse not develop ulcers after intermittent feeding.”

Dr. Andrews, considered an international expert on gastric ulcers in horses, conducted his research over a period of nearly five months. One of his most influential articles was published in the Journal of Animal Science, following a presentation at the ASAS Symposium in St. Louis, MO. His research has shed additional light on ulcers and their causes. As per relevancy, Dr. Andrews estimates that gastric ulcers affect 53 to 93% of horses, depending on varying populations and athletic activity type

Dr. Andrews also served on the advisory board for Merial and Intervet.
He is hosting a webinar sponsored by Merial at the following

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=13693

you can submit questions prior to the webcast to be answered that night…

All I know for sure about ulcers is, what WORKS for one horse may NOT work for another, just too many variables to the cause

[deltawave]

EVERYONE ought to be a “tough crowd” when it comes to parsing drugs, medications, and supplements. Far too much credulity out there, not nearly enough critical thinking. Which is a GENERAL STATEMENT, not directed at anyone here.

A press release is a far cry from a peer-reviewed journal, and a study (I’ll reserve judgment on whether it was a good one or bad one without reading the whole article, including study design, endpoints, methods, etc.) whose conclusion is that “it didn’t make things worse” hardly makes my heart start pounding with excitement. :lol:

[Altamont_Sport_Horse]

[QUOTE=Equsrider;3918950]
wow, you guys are a tough crowd!

can aid in preventing gastric ulcers from increased severity during times of stress and should be considered as part of a daily ulcer preventative program.

In a blinded 2-period crossover study performed at the University’s College of Veterinary Medicine by Dr. Frank M. Andrews, 3 ounces of Seabuck Complete™, mixed in grain and fed twice daily to horses, was shown to prevent gastric ulcers from increased severity in 88% of the horses during stall confinement and intermittent feeding, when compared to control horses.

Seabuck Complete™ was effective in preventing ulcers from increased severity while maintaining natural stomach PH levels at below 4.0. Dr. Andrews is excited to see a product that prevents this condition. [/QUOTE]

Anyone can put out a press release. I could put one out today that I am the self-proclaimed Goddess of Manure Management.

Nothing in this press release tells me that it is effective in treating ulcers or even making them better. See the bolded sections above. I suspect the utility of this product will be limited. The ultimate for the SeaBuck company would be if this product cured stomach ulcers. I would think that they would have researched that first and foremost as that would open their market so wide that they would be raking the money in. We haven’t heard or seen that it cures stomach ulcers and this press release is about research regarding the prevention of increased severity of existing ulcers - that’s it.

I’d like to read the study as well but I don’t think the research has been published. I would think that if it had been SeaBuck Co. would be rushing to cite that publication on their website.

The bigger question is if your horse has ulcers why would you want to use a product that only prevents an increase in severity? Wouldn’t you want to treat the horse so that the ulcers are gone? I wonder how using SeaBuck would compare to horse management that is supposed to be easy on an ulcery stomach - like feeding alfalfa, reducing grain intake, keeping the horse grazing on hay or grass more consistently throughout the day, etc. What if these management methods are the same or even more effective than SeaBuck? You’ve spent $77 for what?

I have nothing against SeaBuck but gee, there is some very vague language with all the right words in it that if not read with a critical eye would allow a person to conclude that it is effective in curing ulcers in horses. And as we all know, just because something is stated on a website does not make it true. I’d like to see the science behind the statements. I’d be even more interested when/if they make claims that it cures ulcers or prevents them from developing entirely. One horse not developing ulcers in this study is not even close to being statistically significant and it could be that this horse has some genetic resiliency.

If anyone does find publications regarding the use of Seabuckthorn in peer reviewed publications and can share links to them I would be interested in reading them.