Seattle Slew surgery....

[lilblackhorse]

was just listening to NPR in the car, and they interviewed the vet doing spinal surgery on Seattle Slew. He is now 28, standing stud at 3 Chimneys Farm in KY. I guess he has had this surgery once before, but age and degeneration has made them opt once again for it.

The coolest part of this though, is Dr Barrie Grant is the surgeon-I knew him at Washington State University when we lived there, and he was a Pony Club dad who would make pancakes for the Pony Clubbers during rally …He is an awesome vet,who pioneered research in Wobbler Syndrome.

Anyway, here’s to a great recovery for the oldest, and only living Triple Crown winner. They said all they want to do is give him the quality of life that he deserves-the be able to walk (and feel his feet-so there must be nerve involvement in the cervical vertabrae)…and to live out his days and “eat and poop” I think is what he said!LOLOL

“Perfect practice makes perfect.”

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong:

1. You cannot compare this to surgery on an aged human. The argument is beyond logic.
   <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don’t understand why not.

It’s true that euthanasia would not be an option for an elderly great aunt, say. But with a damaged, painful hip, for example, you could choose to either medicate and accept limited/no mobility, or you could go for a hip replacement, go for the brass ring as it were.

This IMHO is a very analogous situation. Hip replacement is major surgery, and I have known folk to come out of it ‘not quite right’. It requires long, painful rehabilitation. It’s expensive and requires a lot of home support.

On the other hand, you could choose not to do a replacement, and instead to medicate for pain, and accept that the person will likely be wheelchair bound or bedridden for the rest of his/her life.

Neither choice is right or wrong for all people. You must always weigh the individual facts, situation, and personalities. However, I don’t really see how the issues are all that different for horses or dogs rather than people.

[the_sauce]

i’m glad they did something to help him. two years ago he was bred to a horse i know but she was VERY lucky to get him ‘cause he could only breed a certain amount of mare’s before he got too sore. i hope the old guy is doin’ great!
peace…

[lilblackhorse]

although Glimmer, if you listen, it doesn’t sound like this was a ploy to just make more money-they specifically said that it is just so he can live out his life pain free and walking…that people would think that it was a greed thing, and that standing stud wasn’t part of the plan for his future I think.(or not the be all end all anyway).

Hitch-I agree 28 is old, really old for surgery. However, Dr Grant is an amazing man, and as was echoed above, these people love this horse, and want what’s best for him, and wouldn’t do anything to endanger him. It sounds like he is an exceptional horse-to hear Barrie talk about him that way, and to know how many horses he has worked on, he really must be amazing.

“Perfect practice makes perfect.”

[redhorse05]

This is interesting to read for me. I have a 6 yo with wobbles and the Bigbie surgery was mentioned as not a very good option for him. I did not know it was also likely that the procedure might have to be repeated later. I didn’t have the surgery on my guy, I just can’t afford it. Even if I did, his likelihood to be able to do dressage is pretty slim. So for me, keeping him comfortable and mobile is the best I can do for him.

Do any of you know the genetics of this disease? I know Slew has sired probably thousands of babies. I spoke with the stud owner and breeder of my guy and he said it had never come up before that he knew of. I haven’t been able to find any information about how this is caused in the first place. Maybe someone can enlighten me.

~Odin

[Everythingbutwings]

Shows the original “basket” is functioning well, this sugery will do the same procedure on different vertabrae.

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong:

Yes, this horse is a legend. But he is 28, for crying out loud.

Put him on pain meds and retire him. Just my opinion, mind you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello? Welcome to back pain…

Pain killers do not do jack $hit for this problem (ask anyone who has any nerve damage). It’s the pain management equivalent of spitting on a forest fire. There are three options available: destroy him, do surgery, or heavy doses of muscle relaxants combined with mind blowing levels of pain killers. I doubt the barely effective muscle relaxants people use are even available for horses, and you couldn’t pay me to be around an animal ON them - talk about a dangerous (to man and beast) loss of coordination and motor skills!

(If I had to go through the rest of my life without the option of surgery or muscle relaxants, and someone said all you get is a world class NSAID, the fear of pain would just about paralyze me…)

From everything that I have read this is NOT about returning him to the breeding shed. This is about giving an otherwise happy, healthy animal a chance to live out the last few years of his life safely and pain free.

[I]"You can pretend to be serious; you can’t pretend to be witty. "

• Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *[/I]

[hoopoe]

Drs Grant et al where investigating the genetics of Wobblers in the early 80’s using a Secretariat son ( you should have seen this grand horse, he stood out in the land of QH’s)

I have never seen anything in writing about the outcome. I beleive there is some feeling that high nutrition and rapid growth in the 1 - 2 year of age contributes.

Slew is having a Bagbie fixation for arthritis and joint instability, not for wobblers. The lesions are in his neck and creating a wobblers-like symptomology

_\]
– * > hoopoe
The ancient Greeks did not write obituaries. They only wanted to know if you had a passion.

[joliemom]

If anyone wants to listen to the segment, here’s the link.

[cbv]

and it was pretty clear that returning him to the breeding shed was not the reason for the surgery.

Listen to the broadcast…I found it heart-warming.

Since none of us know the hearts and minds of the people involved in this decision…I guess we have a choice whether to take them at their word.

Either we can believe the owners, surgeons, and his life-long groom are, based on their best professional judgement, making what they hope is the best decision for a horse they care deeply about…

Or we can be cynical and assume the worst about their motives.

For myself…I will take them at their word…makes for a better day.

[This message was edited by cbv on Mar. 01, 2002 at 10:53 AM.]

[This message was edited by cbv on Mar. 01, 2002 at 10:55 AM.]

[This message was edited by cbv on Mar. 01, 2002 at 10:56 AM.]

[DMK]

poltroon - thanks, you asked the question I was going to ask.

I won’t pretend to know a lot about geriatric equine surgery, but I have an above average familiarity with medical issues in the elderly.

The bottom line is that the worst thing that can happen to an elderly person is a) a loss of mobility and b) a hospital. Amazingly enough that sounds a lot like … surgery!

It goes a lot like this - elderly person admitted for surgery, has good outcome, recuperates in hospital, falls out of hospital bed (or slips at home due to weakened condition), breaks hip, has T-hip surgery, is now confined to bed for extended period of time, is faced with potential bedsores, loss of daily contact with support network (family, friends), depression, changes in body chemistry, etc. (diabetes is not an uncommon development here), is shuffled back and forth between outpatient rehab/home health care/inpatient status, is fed a myriad of drugs for the original condition, the T-hip, the depression and so on, develops drug contraindication issues which create a rash of new medical problems, which lands the elderly person right back in the hospital, and so the cycle continues…

This is so common that anyone who has dealt with the elderly is nodding their heads right now. They have all seen multiple cases. Chances are your elderly relatives have been a victim of it. I know mine have.

On the other hand, I think hitch just may be right - there is no comparing horses to people. Horses, by their very size and nature, can only be operated on in a manner that allows them a rapid return to limited mobility, which any geriatric nurse will tell you is the key to an optimum recovery in the elderly… In other words, it sounds like your best bet is to be the elderly equine…

[I]"You can pretend to be serious; you can’t pretend to be witty. "

• Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *[/I]

[hitchinmygetalong]

There has been a “conversation” regarding this over on the Racing Forum, in which I have been, um, “outspoken” in my opinion on this.

Think about this. The horse is 28. This is MAJOR MAJOR surgery. He is ataxic to begin with. They are doing spinal surgery. Recovery should be fun.

Yes, this horse is a legend. But he is 28, for crying out loud.

Put him on pain meds and retire him. Just my opinion, mind you.

[lilblackhorse]

Heartwarming was exactly what I thought too. These people love this horse, and it brought tears to my ears knowing that they would do so much for the horse they love just to have him healthy and pain free. Would that other horse owners take that much care and offer that much love and sacrifice. After that whole rehash of MJ, I was refreshed quite frankly. …your posts were all wonderful, and thank you to the poster who added the link.

“Perfect practice makes perfect.”

[JustaLurker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lilblackhorse:
although Glimmer, if you listen, it doesn’t sound like this was a ploy to just make more money-they specifically said that it is just so he can live out his life pain free and walking…that people would think that it was a greed thing, and that standing stud wasn’t part of the plan for his future I think.(or not the be all end all anyway).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This was also my understanding. They aren’t looking to continue Slew at stud. They just want him to be comfortable in his retirement - hopefully a long one.

[libgrrl]

It’s my understanding that that pretty much wouldn’t be an option. Without the surgery he probably couldn’t walk much longer.

[Rubs_Not_Pats]

I want to echo the sentiment that if you knew Barrie and the way he talks about Slew, I don’t think those of you who think this is 100% about money wouldn’t make these type of remarks. I also feel that some of the remarks are a result of ignorance as to what the proceedure actually is and what the results can be.

FYI, Barrie has operated on one of my yearlings with this proceedure. This horse had a series of falls at his Keuring and was potentially injured. Within days, he was abnormal in his hind gait, and a victim of missdiagnosis for another two months where he was on stall rest. By the time the 3 veterinarians who were seeing him figured out what was going on, he was obviously in trouble. The progression was very fast and there was nothing else we could try. The paced diet thing is a whole other discussion. This horse would trot around his small paddock and periodically fall. It was clear that he really did not know where his hind feet were. It was horrible!

I had the surgery done over a year ago, this horse is now a two year old. He is not “normal” BUT he is not in pain, is happy and safe to work around. His only problem is when he really starts to motor around and jump and buck and then stop- He will bobel sometimes. I don’t know if this horse will ever be used for jumping but would be safe as a pleasure horse. He has beautiful movement and stands out like you wouldn’t believe. If I had to do it again, I would. This horses quality of life was definatly improved and the only other choice was euthanasia.

Some of you may disagree with this but in December I took this horse, with his metal implant and all to a hunter breeding show and he was placed fourth after the movement. He would have done better if I had done a better job with preparation. This was his third time in a bridle. He was also not in show condition as we keep him lean due to his condition. You could not tell there was anything wrong with him. This horse is basically sound and alive because of Dr. Grant.

If doing this proceedure potentially result in a comfortable horse that is not a danger to himself and the handlers I say go for it. The choice is rather bleak.

Really, I am not breeding FOR chestnut, they just come out that way!

[This message was edited by Rubs Not Pats on Mar. 01, 2002 at 12:18 PM.]

[hitchinmygetalong]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by poltroon:
Quote: "Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong:

1. You cannot compare this to surgery on an aged human. The argument is beyond logic.
   "

I don’t understand why not.

…

Neither choice is right or wrong for all people. You must always weigh the individual facts, situation, and personalities. However, I don’t really see how the issues are all that different for horses or dogs rather than people.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Generally, people who are getting ready to go under the knife have some say in the matter. THAT is where the major difference lies. Not in whether it is “right or wrong,” but that the person who is about to go through the physical demands and pain of surgery and recuperation is the one making the final decision (we hope).

[Cactuskate]

Bud has been to San Luis Rey Equine Hospital and under the care of Dr. Barrie Grant. They are wonderful people.

I saw the comemorative leather halter with Seattle Slew’s brass name plate that hangs on the wall in the clinic. Too cool.

I heard the same radio piece yesterday and was so impressed. Hitch, I do not think they would do surgery on this animal if they did not expect an easy, full recovery. Dr. Grant doesn’t seem to be the type to go straight for the knife. And it doesn’t seem like the owners do either. This horse apparently has great fortitude and an amazing ability to recover.

Let’s wish him the best, he has a great team working for him.

“The older I get, the better I used to be, but who the heck cares!”

[Everythingbutwings]

My great aunt (well into her nineties) just had a tumor removed from her brain. She is recovering well and her prognosis is good. No one considered not operating because of her age.

If the best vets in the land say Slew is healthy enough a candidate for surgery, why not? He did remarkably well two years ago.

My horse at that age with that infirmity would probably be euthanized as I would not be able to afford the surgery and recovery but the case with Seattle Slew is very different.

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong:

Generally, people who are getting ready to go under the knife have some say in the matter. THAT is where the major difference lies. Not in whether it is “right or wrong,” but that the person who is about to go through the physical demands and pain of surgery and recuperation is the one making the final decision (we hope<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In theory… yes… But so much that lives in theory holds little water in the real world.

Cognitive disabilities, anxious relatives, pain and a host of other issues make these decisions extremely challenging for the elderly at a time when they are least able to make an informed decision. Add to that the sociological differences of the Depression Era generation which places Doctors on par with God, and there is even less decision making. Maybe the Boomers will push harder (no doubt!), but there isn’t nearly as much informed decision making out there as you might imagine.

Why else do you think 70% of all medical expenses are incurred in the last 30 days of life?

[I]"You can pretend to be serious; you can’t pretend to be witty. "

• Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *[/I]