Secretariat Sons in Sporthorse breeding (Eventing) - Opinions from North America?

Maren · August 25, 2020, 7:53pm

Viney I have no idea who the OP is, if he owns the horse, great, then he can tell me a bit more about them. I went by his link to the database and the Trakehner foals by this stallion from this year are out of mares that I know, hence my question what they looked like. And yes, quite the mare her from a Trakehner perspective. I was simply interested in what this stallion and this mare herad had done, and the OP seemed like the person to ask

Georgi1955 · August 25, 2020, 8:08pm

Hi Maren, sorry we are very busy these times with all aspects of farming, cattle breeding and horse breeding and I rarely find time to come here. But to make a long story short, viney hit the nail right on the head. Careless Secretary is one of the two studs we use (the other is Sturmklang TRK) and for some reason we get more and more inquiries from Germany, Switzerland and as far away as South Africa and Australia/New Zealand; regions we could only serve with frozen semen.
And it is quite possible that this demand will somewhat increase due to an article on him that will be published soon. But it is a long trip back to Germany to get him collected and I will not put him through all this if there is not reason enough to do it.
His fertility with natural cover is not a problem. He even got the Hand in Glove XX mare Ucella pregnant; the first foal in years! Ucella is the second dam of the very hopeful Uni’s Black Pearl. But we do not know if his semen can be processed and frozen.
If you are interested in pictures of the foals, there are some on my fb site www.facebook.com/joerg.muehlethaler
Careless Secretary bred six mares last year and we have a very impressing six foals on the ground now. Reason enough to look in to ways to share his genetics beyond our small operation. For more information you are very welcomed to message me on fb or to send me an email.
Best regards, George

secretariat · August 25, 2020, 8:14pm

IMO, somethingroyal is the key, not secretariat. We’ve competed lots of sir Gaylord horses - including an Irish one or two - but they tend to be hot!

rodawn · August 25, 2020, 8:15pm

Well, I’d like to offer a bit of a differing opinion. If I were hunting for a great TB mare to add to a sport program (or a possible stallion prospect) I personally wouldn’t go for a Secretariat lineage.

Instead, I’d rather go for a Son-In-Law pedigree, especially via his valuable daughter, Maureen. Or one with the great mare, Double Life, especially if it included one of her stallion sons - Precipitation (who sired Furioso), and/or Persian Gulf who sired many steeplechasers in Great Britain.

Maureen is the dam of Furioso. His sire is Precipitation. What makes Furioso so special is the combination between these 2 ultra special mares - Maureen and Double Life.

Son-In-Law is the damsire to Furioso. He is Cottage Son’s grandsire. He is also the great-great grandsire to Ladykiller and twice the great-great-great grandsire to Cor de la Bryere (top and bottom). There is no denying what the Son-In-Law lineage has produced and how they have impacted the sport breeding in warmbloods - not only Hanoverian, but also Holstein and Belgium, and because of this the Son-In-Law lineage is one of the most valuable.

With Cor de la Bryere, he gets a dose of Son-In-Law via his son Foxlaw on the top side. On cordie’s dam’s side, he gets it via Furioso himself.

Secretariat has a dose of Phalaris who is found in some sport pedigrees, but not nearly as many top level sport pedigrees which almost always contain Son-In-Law somewhere in the background.

Just my opinion.

rodawn · August 25, 2020, 8:15pm

This is a really interesting article.

http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricSires/JumpSires/JumpShowroots.html

vineyridge · August 25, 2020, 8:17pm

I’m going to blether a while about Somethingroyal’s pedigree.

I firmly believe that the Alexander Mare of 1790 is one of the greatest mare lines in history for jumping. If you look at Somethingroyal’s first page from the bottom up:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/somethingroyal
you find the Alexander Mare tail female and bred to Roi Herode in the fifith. Next up comes Teddy, whose dam is by Bay Ronald and has the Alexander Mare of 1790 tail female. The next mare up, June Rose, also tails to the Alexander Mare, and she was bred to to a son of Dark Ronald. The next mare up, Isette, also tails to the Alexander Mare of 1790. So three of the four mares on the damside in the fourth all tail to one mare, as does Teddy. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen that before.

On top, in Princequillo, you find in his sire the very underappreciated sire, Gay Crusader by Bayardo; he is damsire for Prince Rose, the sire of Princequillo, Prince Bio, and Prince Chevalier, as well as being Ribot’s damsire’s damsire. This is, of course, another line to Bay Ronald, which helps tie Somethingroyal’s top and bottom together.

But the concentration of the Alexander Mare of 1790 in Somethingroyal’s dam line is definitely worth commenting on as far as TBs in sport go. The Alexander Mare’s son Castrel is tail male to the Le Sancy line (Roi Herode); her son Selim is tail male to the Dollar line. That’s two of Dr. Birdsall’s eight TB lines that have proved themselves in sport. Her daughters Bronze and the Orville Mare have been equally influential. Teddy is another of Dr. Birdsall’s lines, so that makes three with the Alexander Mare of 1790 as a major part of the pedigree.

rodawn · August 25, 2020, 8:19pm

Bay Ronald is also Son-In-Law’s grandsire. They intertwine so much (and well) from back then.

The Alexander Mare also had a son called Selim who is the grandsire to Glencoe. (Many of you know of Glencoe’s famous daughter, Pocahontas).

Very cool to learn about the mare lineage from much deeper.

back_in_the_saddle · August 25, 2020, 8:19pm

Viney… Is all of this info in your head or do you look it up? Lol The amount of knowledge you have on tb lines completely amazes me!!

vineyridge · August 25, 2020, 8:19pm

Much of it is in my head, but I do look things up to make sure that I get things right. If I don’t, I make terrible mistakes.

vineyridge · August 25, 2020, 8:22pm

Just another interesting note about Somethingroyal for sport. She produced a full sister to Sir Gaylord named Swansea. Swansea was bred to Chieftain, a Bold Ruler son, and produced a filly named Chieftain Girl who was sent to the UK or Ireland. When bred to the wonderful Chaser sire, Busted, Chieftain Girl produced Shaab, one of the very best Irish eventing sires of recent times.

Granted you have the good jumping lines on top from Turn-To, Chieftain, and Busted, but it’s interesting.

Justice · August 25, 2020, 8:36pm

I have a fantastic mare whose dam (Lucinda) was Old out of a TB mare, Secrepurpose. Secrepurpose was by Bold Secretariat, does anyone else have that name popping up? The mare is a brilliant hunter, with an epic heart. And, she’s a redhead I always smile when I see Secretariat on her papers… I know it’s pretty common, but I love it.

ellevt · August 25, 2020, 8:42pm

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7670586]
I’m going to blether a while about Somethingroyal’s pedigree.

I firmly believe that the Alexander Mare of 1790 is one of the greatest mare lines in history for jumping. [/QUOTE]