See sawing or "suppling" the horse in the halt?

[Lunabear1988]

The other day I was watching a video of an accomplished Dressage trainer talking about the effects of body position during transitions… A Grand Prix rider/trainer was riding to demonstrate what she was speaking of. A friend noticed that during the halt, it appeared she was see sawing, back and forth during the halt, to keep the horse round.

Now, I was taught at one time to lightly see saw the reins when I rode Western. Now I’ve been riding Dressage for about 15 years and it’s not in my vocabulary. I’ve been taught by every Dressage instructor and dressage book, that this is not a good idea. Suppling lightly with the the inside rein with a supporting outside rein and leg? Sure, when needed.

​​​​​​Is it necessary to do this at the halt? Is it ever okay to see saw the reins? I was just puzzled. The rider is obviously a good rider, far beyond my level…

Curious on opinions on this from those more experienced!

[netg]

Welcome to competitive dressage, where a bent neck takes higher priority than fixing whatever in the body prevents it.

[Lunabear1988]

That’s my take, @netg it definitely seemed like see sawing too, not a little play on the bit. It was a very busy back and forth action. I just can’t imagine that is correct but I’m a nobody…

[x-halt-salute]

I’m kinda curious exactly what you saw, as see-sawing the reins is pretty fundamentally antithetical to the kind of confidence in the contact a dressage horse must have. See-sawing tends to shorten the neck without allowing the horse to stretch into the contact, thus preventing roundness instead of accomplishing it. The only thing I can think of that might look like that is the use of a squeeze-release action on the inside rein only to encourage flexion, but that’s obviously something you’d recognize. I’m guessing the rider was moving the bit to keep the horse from checking out in moments of inactivity, but without seeing the video or knowing more it’s impossible to say more than that.

Yesterday I shared the arena at my boarding barn with a western rider who just moved in from out of state with a horse that looks to have a WP background. It’s been a very long time since I’ve encountered that kind of riding, and I struggled not to gawk for a moment, since her hands were each moving 4-5" as she sawed away quite energetically at her horse’s mouth. Nothing I’ve ever seen in dressage looks like that, though you do now and then see a lower level rider wagging their horse’s head or doing the baby-seesaw that some call “massaging the reins” or “sponging the reins”. None of it seems productive w.r.t. contact, IMO, and it’s not something I can remember seeing in more accomplished, talented riders.

[alibi_18]

You or your friend should have asked the rider.

It can be a lot of things. You would the have known if the rider was aiming at see-sawing or not.

From bad riding, bad habits to being something else, as you said « it appeared », your friend could have been right or wrong.

And then, there is see-sawing, and really see-sawing.
If it only « appeared », it must have been more on the subtle side of the see-sawing range of motion possibilities.

Was the rider using his/her leg aids as well?

I had the bad habit of reajusting my reins constantly at one point, especially when stressed out… It could have appeared to be some sort of see-sawing (and it probably did :rolleyes:)

If the rider was trying to get some contact and was using tiny flexions + leg aids for the horse to round itself, it’s no big deal to me. Is the horse at piaffe/passage level? They can usually bring/move their hinds under.

I prefer teaching square halt/stay/go (or backing up) from forward movement and work on balancing it all but using little flexions and leg aids at the halt isn’t the end of the world.

Was the horse looking distress, angry, unhappy, mouth open?

[alibi_18]

@Lunabear1988

That’s my take, @netg it definitely seemed like see sawing too, not a little play on the bit. It was a very busy back and forth action. I just can’t imagine that is correct but I’m a nobody…

Have you seen it too or was that just your friend who noticed?

Was the horse’s head following the bit back and forth?

Not that I condone this type of quick flexions of the neck, but that doesn’t mean it is see-sawing.

[Lunabear1988]

It was a video. I don’t want to link it because I could be wrong (that’s why I’m here asking, still very much learning…) and honestly she seems like a really nice person. And overall is a pretty rider and overall horse seemed happy.

But it’s definitely a back and forth with both reins. Not extremely harsh, but from the angle you can see her hands and the bit moving back and forth. I didn’td sees any use of the leg to my eye.it just surprised me as the horse never came above the bit. He seemed content but during every halt in the video she did that. He didn’t seem overly worried, just v would go behind the vertical quite a bit until she asked him to trot off.

I’m not blasting her, just honestly curious. I think it’s good to ask questions, especially in dressage! I did comment on the video, she just said ideally you shouldn’t see saw but it can help supple a horse that’s locked in the jaw.

[Lunabear1988]

@alibi_18 I sent my friend the video because I thought the position stuff was really informative. She pointed that out and then I noticed it in the video too.

[Lunabear1988]

I can pm the video to anyone but with the understanding that I was sending the video to my friend because overall I enjoyed the information of the video, just was very confused about what was happening in the halt. I’m still learning but I was totally confused, it seemed at least like gentle see sawing/busy hands and just didn’t seem necessary.

[Can_tFindMyWhip]

I have come across high level trainers who flex the neck one way and then the next to “release the poll” and see-saw at the halt. The explanation that I got for the see-sawing was that it was to “release the jaw.” I don’t really buy it, but these riders have been on the inside of FEI dressage courts and done well there, so I smiled and nodded. What else was I supposed to do.

I do know that you cannot work on developing proper contact without impulsion, and if you contact disappears in the halt, pick up a trot and try again. These upper level riders ought to know better, so this just proves once again that riding to get to the top does not mean that someone is riding correctly.

[merrygoround]

See-sawing at the halt or at any gait to “release the jaw” is in my mind, poor riding. Gentle flexion of the entire head and neck, backed up by the use of the leg, are more common, and done properly are useful.

[Lunabear1988]

Okay, there are multiple videos of her doing this squeezing/wiggling both reins back in forth . It’s in a video that up to teach viewers how to get their horses on the bit. And it’s in a video about the rein back. I haven’t watched more videos but this action is a trend.

Disappointing because she’s a Grand Prix rider and has a channel for Dressage education.

[ThreeFigs]

I’m with alibi_18 and merrygoround on this. Rapid see-sawing has no place in dressage, bot a lot of riders will gently play with the bit and to some it might look like see-sawing. Then there is “asking” the horse to flex right and left – you know it’s right when you see the horse’s crest “flip” right or left. That’s not done quickly, though. You ask for a right “flip” gently, then release and gently ask for a left “flip”. I usually incorporate such “flips” in my walking warm-up as part of the suppling process. I’ll ask for the “flips” over a series of strides, so it’s not rapid.

[Lunabear1988]

It’s definitely a fast, back and forth action. Not cruel or hard butb not something I’ve seen many goodg trainers do.Same thing she used to tell viewers to get their horse’s “on the bit.”

[Willesdon]

@Lunabear1988

Okay, there are multiple videos of her doing this squeezing/wiggling both reins back in forth …Disappointing because she’s a Grand Prix rider and has a channel for Dressage education.

Dressage is always a work in progress and both horse and rider develop and change as the movements become more difficult and the ride more subtle. The aim is always harmony between horse and rider, with an ideal of a horse dancing beneath a rider who appears to be doing nothing at all (except possibly grinning like the Cheshire cat). As a very rough rule of thumb, if you can see a rider working hard, they need to refine their skills.

Any dressage photo or video is a moment in that journey: always look at them with a with a cautious eye since even the superstars have their off moments. A second thought: we all develop good and bad habits when we ride, even the superstars. Third, every horse is different, and some like one way and others like a different one: learn to ‘feel’ and ride what works for that particular horse. Recall that we learn the most from our mistakes rather than successes. So, while watching an otherwise good rider, you have observed something ‘odd’ or that seemed ‘off’ - but now you know that you don’t like it and will avoid doing it yourself. Other ideas, patterns, analogies that the rider offers and you like, use them. Pick out the nuggets and discard the dross.

[BWP]

@Lunabear1988

It’s definitely a fast, back and forth action. Not cruel or hard butb not something I’ve seen many goodg trainers do.Same thing she used to tell viewers to get their horse’s “on the bit.”

I think I know the rider and videos you’re talking about, and yes, I thought the same about the ‘handsyness’ in trying to get the horse ‘on the bit’

[soloudinhere]

@Lunabear1988

It’s definitely a fast, back and forth action. Not cruel or hard butb not something I’ve seen many goodg trainers do.Same thing she used to tell viewers to get their horse’s “on the bit.”

let me guess, she’s Australian?

[Lunabear1988]

@soloudinhere no, definitely American. But I know who you are speaking of!

[Lusoluv]

Yes, I saw this video and a few others of hers. Trust your instincts - they are correct!

[Lunabear1988]

Yeah I can’t get behind it, especially seeing more videos of the same thing. I wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt though because I’m not an expert.

I will not be using that technique in that way myself.